My video of my stroke with 3 different wrist positions. Need your analysis

[burnmarkpubcue]

"If you're thinking, you're stinking!" Wise words from Tom McMonagle.

Relaxed wrist is the best..IMHO.. Like another poster said, leave as many muscles out of the stroke as possible..

What type of batteries does your shirt take?? Just curious??

I want to believe in Tom's words I really do

My shirt requires no batteries, It works like a mood ring lol...

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

Good video my friend.
The questions you have asked, I too have been thinking about plus add another 3 wrist positions and hand actions to the mix.
I have come to some conclusions, right or wrong.

The 1st grip you show, I find it works best on power shots in straight line but doesn’t work well on draw, more of a stop shot hold.
Deadly accurate but no real feel or finesse.
If I try to slow down the stroke it loses accuracy and same thing happens it is hard to keep straight.
I’m much lower on the shot than you are and it makes it easier.
When I try to play with this hold I position my elbow, shoulder and hand in such a way that they cannot go anymore right.
This way I can make a mistake only by pulling the cue towards my body. Much easier when you miss to one side only.

The 2nd grip, interesting thing about this grip is that you can push your hand out which brings the elbow more towards the body creating a plane that allows stroking in a straight line with ease.
However, like you said cannot go back too much.
I experimented with this hold and rejected it.
I like the elbow in this position but not the wrist, no real touch.

The 3rd grip is the most accurate, Efren has this type of a hold.
I believe it is easier for you to cue like this because your hand cannot physically go anymore right.
You have created a plane and you are staying on it.
The cue rests on your fingers and isn’t getting pushed left or right.
The danger is that the bend in your wrist can change.
This stroke is great for soft touch, draw. Not so good on follow shots, rail shots, jacked up shots.
I find you can guide the cue the longest on a straight line with this grip.

I have 2 grips that I have been experimenting with:
For straight follow shots, rails shots, any shot requiring perfect straightness where cueing is the most important and the CB doesn’t have to do anything fancy, so shots with no English.
I like to hold the cue by wrapping my middle finger around the cue.
2 back fingers are off the cue.
Thumb and index pointing down, the tops of index and thumb hold the cue from side movement and the top of this contraption presses slightly down on the cue.
This completely immobilized the wrist, without chocking the cue.

For draw and finesse shots, it is kind of like your 3rd grip but much less bend.
Once again for me the middle finger is the key, I use it to stabilize my wrist from side movement. There is some support from ring finger, pinky is off .
The thumb points towards the body somewhat, not down.
The index finger is sort of on and off the cue.
If you watch the index finger of Archer or Immonen it is sort of like that.
The cue delivery is very level with this grip and follow through is the greatest.
Another benefit is that if you want you can start your stroke very slow and accelerate at your leisure.

Anyway, it’s just me.

The wrist position and holds are largely determined by the alignment of the other parts of your body.
Some grips work better with certain stances.
Relationship between shoulder, elbow, hand dictates the most what type of grip will be effective for you.

Just another player trying to figure what works.

Good Luck!

Wow ! Thanks for your reply.. I tried your 2 grips today and I feel positive about both of them and really see how each one is good for those straight/no english and touch english shots. It seems we might have the same issues with are feel of our wrists etc.. Both feel very very nice I just hope it's not the honey moon stage syndrome that I get in tennis when I am trying a new racquet .. Thank you very much Wolven.. Bye the way on my 3rd wrist shot I just exaggerated it when showing you but I don't bend it that far. Next time I make a video I will add how I am doing with the 2 examples you explained to me. Peace..

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

Good advice from Donny here.

Also, I think it's great you're utilizing video to help you improve. I spent about 10 years away from the game before picking it up again a couple years back when my son started playing. I began using video with him so he could observe himself and see what I was seeing, and then started using it myself. Really wish I'd had access to this when I was younger. It would have greatly reduced the time and effort it takes to work through slumps, problems with certain shots, etc. I've found that most problems I've had in the past were caused by minor problems in stance or stroke.

All that being said, I confess I stopped watching your video after about 1:30. IMO, you're thinking WAY too much about 1 individual part of your stroke. I used to play a lot of pool with a local golf pro, and he said when a student came to him and asked whether he should push with his right hand or pull with his left on the drive, that guy's game was screwed.

Find a stance that offers solid balance and allows your arm, hand and cue to swing in a straight line. Find a nice rhythm between your eyes and your stroke, lock in, keep your head and body still and follow straight through. I NEVER think about my wrist, but I do sometimes think about keeping my hand fairly loose. One thing that has helped me when I feel "off" is to put my cue tip on the table where it should end on the follow through and work my way backwards into the stance. In this way I can be sure I maintain my balance all the way to the end of the stroke. Use the video to diagnose the cause only when you have problems in your game. You'll learn what causes you to do certain things (If I get unintended left english on a shot, I'm forcing my stroke by leaning to the right, etc.).

Don't over-think the mechanics. This game is hard enough as it is. Good luck!

I believe in your words. One thing about me that carries on in my daily life that i am working on is that I over think to much, It actually has caused me anxiety Which was a good thing because it forced me to relax in everything i do and now I am slowing myself down to a good pace of thinking / living You have a good soul and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.. Happy holidays

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

Good video my friend.
The questions you have asked, I too have been thinking about plus add another 3 wrist positions and hand actions to the mix.
I have come to some conclusions, right or wrong.

The 1st grip you show, I find it works best on power shots in straight line but doesn’t work well on draw, more of a stop shot hold.
Deadly accurate but no real feel or finesse.
If I try to slow down the stroke it loses accuracy and same thing happens it is hard to keep straight.
I’m much lower on the shot than you are and it makes it easier.
When I try to play with this hold I position my elbow, shoulder and hand in such a way that they cannot go anymore right.
This way I can make a mistake only by pulling the cue towards my body. Much easier when you miss to one side only.

The 2nd grip, interesting thing about this grip is that you can push your hand out which brings the elbow more towards the body creating a plane that allows stroking in a straight line with ease.
However, like you said cannot go back too much.
I experimented with this hold and rejected it.
I like the elbow in this position but not the wrist, no real touch.

The 3rd grip is the most accurate, Efren has this type of a hold.
I believe it is easier for you to cue like this because your hand cannot physically go anymore right.
You have created a plane and you are staying on it.
The cue rests on your fingers and isn’t getting pushed left or right.
The danger is that the bend in your wrist can change.
This stroke is great for soft touch, draw. Not so good on follow shots, rail shots, jacked up shots.
I find you can guide the cue the longest on a straight line with this grip.

I have 2 grips that I have been experimenting with:
For straight follow shots, rails shots, any shot requiring perfect straightness where cueing is the most important and the CB doesn’t have to do anything fancy, so shots with no English.
I like to hold the cue by wrapping my middle finger around the cue.
2 back fingers are off the cue.
Thumb and index pointing down, the tops of index and thumb hold the cue from side movement and the top of this contraption presses slightly down on the cue.
This completely immobilized the wrist, without chocking the cue.

For draw and finesse shots, it is kind of like your 3rd grip but much less bend.
Once again for me the middle finger is the key, I use it to stabilize my wrist from side movement. There is some support from ring finger, pinky is off .
The thumb points towards the body somewhat, not down.
The index finger is sort of on and off the cue.
If you watch the index finger of Archer or Immonen it is sort of like that.
The cue delivery is very level with this grip and follow through is the greatest.
Another benefit is that if you want you can start your stroke very slow and accelerate at your leisure.

Anyway, it’s just me.

The wrist position and holds are largely determined by the alignment of the other parts of your body.
Some grips work better with certain stances.
Relationship between shoulder, elbow, hand dictates the most what type of grip will be effective for you.

Just another player trying to figure what works.

Good Luck!

quick question.. On your two experimental grips, On the first one for no english shots do you keep your wrist straight like my first shot in my video or do you bend it also like your second experimental grip?

 

[Wolven]

quick question.. On your two experimental grips, On the first one for no english shots do you keep your wrist straight like my first shot in my video or do you bend it also like your second experimental grip?

Straight like your 1st grip. However, the power is not coming from the wrist but elbow and shoulder.
If you lineup shoulder, elbow, wrist correctly you can have 2 inch takeback and almost unlimited power if you want.

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

Straight like your 1st grip. However, the power is not coming from the wrist but elbow and shoulder.
If you lineup shoulder, elbow, wrist correctly you can have 2 inch takeback and almost unlimited power if you want.

Thanks , It sounds like the piston stroke.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Thanks for your thoughts Donny.. Over the years I find it better for lining up the shot to not get so low. Also in the beginning of my video you are right I was holding the butt to high up but that was because I thought I wasn't in the picture and I was only wanting to show you the 90 degree arm and the wrist. But later in the video and yes it was hard to tell but that was my correct placement for the right hand on the butt. I would take lessons in a heart beat but I cannot afford them at this time and I figured you people are very nice and if my recording isn't good enough for people to give some good information about it then I will try again in the future for a better video. Thanks again for your time and thoughts,

~Tony

It's quite alright to "line up" the shot from various body positions, but there is a reason pros get "down" on the cue. It allows you to see the actual targets (on CB and OB) more easily (you don't have to look back and forth so much). Not sure what you mean by "90 degree am and wrist". I still think you're too far forward with your grip hand. To test this, address the cue ball (tip at CB) as in a normal shot and hold the position. Now look at your forearm. It should be close to 90 degrees TO THE CUE (with some exceptions). If you're grip hand is too far forward, you will invariably have difficulty following through without a dramatic drop of the elbow, which is not the ideal for most shots.
Regarding the cost of professional lessons. Not all instructors charge $100 and hour (or more!) for private lessons. There are some of us who cater to the average American who doesn't have a lot of $. An investment of $20-$50 will do more for your game than buying a new cue or practicing for 100 hours. (Practicing without lessons is practicing your bad habits and making them much harder to eliminate.)

"Books are great, as are videos, forums and the rest;
personal lessons are the best!!"

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

 

[rcarson]

Getting a lesson is a good idea but you can also find other people in your area that can help you too, that aren't instructors. Getting a AA player in your area to help with your stroke shouldn't be to hard, I have personally found that higher level players in the right setting are very very helpful. Not saying it won't cost you any money, but it is possible to get a lesson for free from them.

Also, (I didn't watch your video, sorry) one thing I notice that people haven't mentioned is the bridge, Your bridge is another important part of a solid straight stroke. So you may want to look at different ways to bridge that give you a gliding point for your cue to align and stroke straighter.

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

It's quite alright to "line up" the shot from various body positions, but there is a reason pros get "down" on the cue. It allows you to see the actual targets (on CB and OB) more easily (you don't have to look back and forth so much). Not sure what you mean by "90 degree am and wrist". I still think you're too far forward with your grip hand. To test this, address the cue ball (tip at CB) as in a normal shot and hold the position. Now look at your forearm. It should be close to 90 degrees TO THE CUE (with some exceptions). If you're grip hand is too far forward, you will invariably have difficulty following through without a dramatic drop of the elbow, which is not the ideal for most shots.
Regarding the cost of professional lessons. Not all instructors charge $100 and hour (or more!) for private lessons. There are some of us who cater to the average American who doesn't have a lot of $. An investment of $20-$50 will do more for your game than buying a new cue or practicing for 100 hours. (Practicing without lessons is practicing your bad habits and making them much harder to eliminate.)

"Books are great, as are videos, forums and the rest;
personal lessons are the best!!"

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

Cool, Can you direct me to someone that charges that much here in southern california ? Even better if they are in the inland empire area Thanks for your time.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Cool, Can you direct me to someone that charges that much here in southern california ? Even better if they are in the inland empire area Thanks for your time.

Do a search for instructors
You might try going to the BCA and ACS websites (BCA-pool.com and americancuesports.org). They have a list of their instructors, most of whom have websites with details about lessons.
There are thousands of players out there who think they can teach pool. Some can, some can't. The best players are not generally the best teachers, and the best teachers aren't necessarily great players (look at other sports). BCA and ACS instructors have put in countless hours and many $ into learning the game and learning how to teach the game. Most do it out of love for the game. It's well worth going to a real instructor if you're serious about improving.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

Do a search for instructors
You might try going to the BCA and ACS websites (BCA-pool.com and americancuesports.org). They have a list of their instructors, most of whom have websites with details about lessons.
There are thousands of players out there who think they can teach pool. Some can, some can't. The best players are not generally the best teachers, and the best teachers aren't necessarily great players (look at other sports). BCA and ACS instructors have put in countless hours and many $ into learning the game and learning how to teach the game. Most do it out of love for the game. It's well worth going to a real instructor if you're serious about improving.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

Thanks again.. I found a guy that plays at hard times billiards with Efren reyes and company. I live close to that area and he emailed me back so looks like I am going to get my first lesson of my life ! I told him I can pocket balls all day long with no or little english and that I am always in 8 ball hell and I would like to learn how to shoot with more cue ball control and have him over look anything wrong with my stance ect .. I can't wait..

 

[Hungarian]

I love your game. Plus, I like your clothing selection

 

[burnmarkpubcue]

I love your game. Plus, I like your clothing selection

Thanks man Happy Holidays and I will try to post some game play soon.

 

[mmasou]

I have 2 grips that I have been experimenting with:
For straight follow shots, rails shots, any shot requiring perfect straightness where cueing is the most important and the CB doesn’t have to do anything fancy, so shots with no English.
I like to hold the cue by wrapping my middle finger around the cue.
2 back fingers are off the cue.
Thumb and index pointing down, the tops of index and thumb hold the cue from side movement and the top of this contraption presses slightly down on the cue.
This completely immobilized the wrist, without chocking the cue.

For draw and finesse shots, it is kind of like your 3rd grip but much less bend.
Once again for me the middle finger is the key, I use it to stabilize my wrist from side movement. There is some support from ring finger, pinky is off .
The thumb points towards the body somewhat, not down.
The index finger is sort of on and off the cue.
If you watch the index finger of Archer or Immonen it is sort of like that.
The cue delivery is very level with this grip and follow through is the greatest.
Another benefit is that if you want you can start your stroke very slow and accelerate at your leisure.

Anyway, it’s just me.

The wrist position and holds are largely determined by the alignment of the other parts of your body.
Some grips work better with certain stances.
Relationship between shoulder, elbow, hand dictates the most what type of grip will be effective for you.

1) i'm happy you posted this message, after weeks of experimentation on grip and stroke, I stumbled on the same type of grip [the bolded part above] that seems to be working best for me in terms of follow through, level stroke and fluidity - i like your description about it.
the middle + ring finger seem to stabilize wrist from side movement keeping it loose, a deadly combination for smooth and level stroke delivery. though I would add that I don't see why this could only be for near straight-in shots involving little english. I applied all kinds of english using that grip with much success. you're supposed to stroke the ball consistently so I don't think it's a good idea to consciously change grips for different shots. whether it's a powershot or a simple shot, the follow through is just perfect. it doesn't matter if the cue ball goes way further than you expected. that's just a sign of a better follow through. all you need to do is adjust the speed of the follow through - not change grips, imho.

i don't know why but it seems to me that every time i add the index finger to hold the cue, the follow through and smoothness is at 70% capacity compared to when index finger is not involved but merely there "because it's there", or as you said it, "Sort of on and off the cue".

i think the reason is very simple. after looking at my hand, i notice the thickness & structure of my index finger which is noticeably thicker than the middle finger. the side which joins the index to its knuckle is pretty large and thick, which means when I'm holding cue with first 2-3 fingers, it is techincally the index finger alone cradling the cue because of it's extra added thickness. also my middle finger rests lower than my index finger, so the middle finger isn't even touching the cue, or barely.

see pic below, notice the "thickness" around the knuckle of my index finger:

i also did a simple "proprioception" test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception), which might explain why I (and few others) feel a more centered line of follow through by using middle finger (or middle+ring finger) when they hold the cue.

1- bending (or wiggling) the index finger alone , i feel quite strongly the inside edge of my elbow
2- bending (or wiggling) the middle finger alone, i feel only slightly the dead center of my elbow

the differences in which fingers hold the cue and the angle of the wrist seems to me is a question of the ligament-bone structure of each individual.

only thanks to my own analysis i've come to understand and "experience" a better stroke. i find analyzing correctly (probably best with a qualified instructor , can speed up the learning curve. that's my 2 cents..


2) to the thread starter: good video, i like your mindset, you have a clear way to explain things too. don't get discouraged by people who tell you you're overthinking/overanalyzing. i've heard that one before. what they mean to say is, you're analyzing yourself more than they do - they get thrown off by doing so. each person has a different brain structure, some people get too fuzzy by over-thinking, other people have no problems with it.

i'm like you, i can analyze to the very details without any problems - I find it has helped improve my fundamentals by at least 300% or more, maybe by a 1000%.

 

[mmasou]

looks like the late steve mizerak also had his wrist very slightly turned inwards. he is known for an impeccable stroke.

 

[Shaky1]

This is a great thread !:thumbup:
I have been working with the same grips. I can't tell which is correct either.
Curled in like the "Miz" seems more accurate, but is uncomfortable.

Curled out gives me more touch, and I can hold it loosely. I tend to use it on softer, touch strokes.

The middle ground just doesn't work consistently enough and I tend to tighten up too much during my stroke, especially using a harder, breaking type of speed.

Don't know? I think too much too!

 

[mmasou]

try this, it might help you this advice was given to me by FranCrimi a few weeks ago, but I also saw randyg** posting the exact same trick to "loosen up" the grip for people who tend to have it tighten up:

2.) As an experiment, practice long straight in shots, but take your thumb and index finger of your grip hand completely off the cue. Just rest them along side the cue facing down. Then just shoot the shots with the last three fingers gripping the cue only. If the shots start going in, you may have a twisting problem with your first two fingers. When you put them back on the cue you will need to relax them more and not put as much pressure on them as you stroke.

** abbreviated version of what randyg had to say about tight grip problems (I think it was from him):
[as a practice, take the thumb out of the equation by not letting it touch the cue at all, and shoot like that as a practice, you should see immediately that there is no tension whatsoever during your stroke. then put the thumb back so it rests next to the cue, remembering that it's essentially an idle part, and practice some more, remembering how it felt without the thumb touching the cue at all]

 

[One Pocket John]

I'm not an instructor.

Standing straight up with your arms down to your side, look down at your grip hand. Notice how your fingers are hanging, look at your thumb notice how it is hanging (it should be pointing in toward your body). The wrist should be completely relaxed.

Now lay the cue in your fingers and pull it gently up to the palm of your hand (wrist is relaxed) the only tensioning you should be feeling is in the last 3 fingers of you grip hand. The thumb and index finger should not be involved. The thumb is there only to keep the cue from falling on the floor. The index finger is way too powerful to be used in the stroke. Whatever you do, do not force your wrist out of its natural hanging position.

The pool stroke is accomplished with the coordinated efforts of the fingers, hand and wrist. The forearm and upper arm (bicep) are following the hand only because they are physically connected. The upper arm bicep is used to bring the cue forward as requested by the action of the grip fingers bringing the cue up into the palm of the hand as the cue tip approaches the cue ball. No tension should be felt in your forearm at any time. If you are feeling tension in your forearm you are gripping the cue to tight and not allowing it to just lay on the last 3 finger pads of your hand.

Once you have become comfortable with the above you will develop a feel of the cue ball weight and cue ball positioning will become more predictable. Your shooting arm will feel as though it is disconnected from your body. You pocket balls and control the cue ball with your grip hand. Its a feel thing that is felt in the grip hand.


John

 

[FranCrimi]

Tony,

Just watched your video and if you feel that pulling your arm under your torso feels best then it's probably because your stance is off.

I highly recommend straight, and if it doesn't feel right to you, I recommend that you do some research on stance and find your stance that works best with a straight arm and wrist.

Also, you seem to be too choked up on the cue which doesn't help matters in trying to determine your best arm and wrist position.

 

[mmasou]

after reading a couple of different threads relating to stroke, and particularly this one:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=173460

i saw the name buddy hall repeat itself many times, as well as mike sigel, and steve mizerak. then watched some videos on youtube of them, they all seemed to share very similar traits, they hit the bal sweet.
so i went to the pool hall and for like 5 hours straight i practiced my stroke, and thanks to those videos i realized that i was always using my shoulder, it drops or moves just before i hit the cue ball.

amazing what you can learn just by carefully watching others, and practicing with determination to change your stroke to be more pure.
after 3-4 hrs i found a sweet spot in my stroke then for the next 1-2 hrs i kept potting balls and kept telling myself on every shot, hit the ball pure, hit the ball pure. even after that for 1 shot out of 5 i would not hit it pure, it's not like the change will happen overnight.

the funny thing is that by concentrating on hitting the ball pure, it seemed like it didnt really matter that much about my grip. i soon realized that i could hit the ball "pure" with different kinds of grips as long as you were cradling the cue fairly loosely. my biggest hurdle seems it was the shoulder, and forward wrist action just before hitting the cue ball which killed the stroke. it seems backward wrist action acts positively on the stroke, but forward wrist action doesn't.

it's really amazing how little things change everything. i then saw myself standing way up there, then i missed some shots then i realized even though i was hitting the balls more or less pure, the stance was a little bit off.. then i readjusted readjusted only to find that the shoulder was creeping slowly back into play.

then i realized its best i keep going at it to hit the ball pure, hit the ball pure, then later on i can adjust and tweak stance etc.

woow im writing a novel here again sorry folks. Good luck to all, hit'em pure.