NaySayers and YeaSayers

This is a pretty good example of why you are viewed as such a LOU-sah.

JoeyA


Jeez, Joey. The older you get the more you become more more like a little teen aged girl. What happened to the Joey that was capable of intelligent compassionate discussion and debate? Or is my memory failing me and you were never capable of that in the first place?

All you do now is name call and use blue ink and bold font.

None of that is a fair substitute for logic and reason. (And before you start listing your perceived list of the faults and the sins of others, just look at your own posts -- you are fond of saying "each man must find his own salvation" so when are you going to find yours? It's like you've lost control and now you just rant like Fast Larry used to do...

I'm starting to be glad you're not coming to my US Open 1Pocket dinner :-(

Lou Figueroa
 
In most cases an argument may lead to a fight, But at that point
both parties should walk away IMO. That is what I have done.
I dont see a solution or benefit to either side. Shouldn't even be a side.
Everyone has to play their own game and live with their results.
Peace
 
The top drawing is a 3D drawing of a 22-23 degree right cut from the player's point of view. The cue ball is about 18" from the object ball. For "manual CTE" the shot is aligned for an outside tip offset and left pivot. Several CTE/ProOne users have said that it's a fairly reasonable representation of what they see on this shot. The drawing was done with Google SketchUp; the pool table was drawn by Jal - it's very nicely done, but unfortunately little of it is seen here to keep the picture size down.

The bottom 2D drawings are of 15 and 30 degree shots; they are correct in so far as plane geometry is concerned. The squares are 2" and the balls are 2.25" This illustrates why it's difficult to say much about CTE/ProOne using Euclidean geometry. Done properly, they should look pretty much like the top drawing. They were drawn with Campaign Cartographer 3, which is a very nice 2D drawing program, and indispensable if you're into drawing maps.
 

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In most cases an argument may lead to a fight, But at that point
both parties should walk away IMO. That is what I have done.
I dont see a solution or benefit to either side. Shouldn't even be a side.
Everyone has to play their own game and live with their results.
Peace

Good post, Petey. :thumbup:

Roger
 
jwpretd:
...once the player is correctly positioned by following the prescripts of the methodology, then the CB-to-GB line is offset a short distance (1/2" or so) from the player-perceived CTE line
Isn't it a line between the CTE line and the edge-to-aimpoint line?

If this one question isn't answered isn't that all the "analysis" needed? How can that be true of an "exact" system?

I think selection of the unpivoted aimline and selection of the final pivoted aimline ("pivoting") are really one step, whether it's performed as a two-step in CTE or a one-step in Pro One. My name for it is "aiming by feel".

pj
chgo
 
Jeez, Joey. The older you get the more you become more more like a little teen aged girl. What happened to the Joey that was capable of intelligent compassionate discussion and debate? Or is my memory failing me and you were never capable of that in the first place?

All you do now is name call and use blue ink and bold font.

None of that is a fair substitute for logic and reason. (And before you start listing your perceived list of the faults and the sins of others, just look at your own posts -- you are fond of saying "each man must find his own salvation" so when are you going to find yours? It's like you've lost control and now you just rant like Fast Larry used to do...

I'm starting to be glad you're not coming to my US Open 1Pocket dinner :-(

Lou Figueroa

Lou,
It's true that most of this is out of charcter for me but the truth is I wanted to give the Naysayers a taste of what they've been giving many forum member for years.

If the naysayers learned to treat the forum members will respect they would get respect in return.

All I see is the Naysayers continuing their disrespectful ways and I'm showing all of you what you really look like to other members.

Unfortunately, you get dirty wrestling with the pigs.


JoeyA
 
So what made you decide to throw a tantrum instead?

pj
chgo

No tantrum here. You and Louie must be dreaming that one up.

I'm getting tired of you and anyone else ridiculing other forum members, that's all.

I don't give a rat's azz what aiming system anyone uses. LOL
 
Isn't it a line between the CTE line and the edge-to-aimpoint line?

If this one question isn't answered isn't that all the "analysis" needed? How can that be true of an "exact" system?

I think selection of the unpivoted aimline and selection of the final pivoted aimline ("pivoting") are really one step, whether it's performed as a two-step in CTE or a one-step in Pro One. My name for it is "aiming by feel".

pj
chgo

This summarizes things perfectly, IMO. If not, then smart yeasayers, refute this single issue - or, as Spider says, STFU, please!
 
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jwpretd:
...once the player is correctly positioned by following the prescripts of the methodology, then the CB-to-GB line is offset a short distance (1/2" or so) from the player-perceived CTE line

Isn't it a line between the CTE line and the edge-to-aimpoint line?
Assuming "it" refers to the CB-GB line, then the answer is no, not from the player's perspective at the time the sight lines are acquired. From the player's perspective, for cuts less than 30 degrees the CB-GB line will be outside his CTE sight line, and for cuts greater than 30 degrees, it lies between his CTE sight line and the edge-to-aim point line (i.e., the CB-GB line runs outside of the edge of the OB).

"From the player's perspective" is important. At the time the two sight lines are acquired ("visualized"), he is standing upright, some distance behind the cue ball, offset to one side of the CB-GB and CB-OB center lines, and angled with respect to them (i.e., he is not "directly behind" the cue ball with respect to either the GB or OB, and is above all three). When he visualizes the CTE line, I believe he "sees" it as running from what he perceives as the top center of the cue ball to what he perceives as the geometric center of the cue ball. I believe the other line is visualized as running from the perceived cue ball edge above the table to the OB aim point at the same height. One reason for that belief is that that's how I saw them when I first put a couple of balls on a table and looked at them. Another is that I asked several people who use CTE/ProOne to look at 3D drawings (e.g., post #324 above) and they confirmed that the drawings reflected approximately what they saw when they were positioned properly. There are others - not mysterious, just lengthy and it's late, and I'll post them if you care. All of this conspires to make the relationships between the various lines different from what plane geometry would lead us to expect (again, post #324 above, and c.f. http://www.thyrsgeat.org/Pool/CTE_ProOne/).

For computational purposes, at least, it's worth noting that none of the perceived ball centers, edge points, or aim points corresponds to the physical points at (x, y, z=2.25) and (x+n, y+m, z=1.125) in the coordinate system of the table; the perceived points are "rotated" "forward" with respect to those points. (Shades of Hal's "rotating edges", eh?:))

I think selection of the unpivoted aimline and selection of the final pivoted aimline ("pivoting") are really one step, whether it's performed as a two-step in CTE or a one-step in Pro One.

I mostly agree about one step, though I'd say that there's really only one aim line - the CB-GB line - and that the intent of CTE/ProOne is to help the player reliably locate that line.

My name for it is "aiming by feel".

I think very nearly all of the "feel", "adjustment", "intuition", "judgement', etc, is absorbed by the act of acquiring the CTE and edge-to-aim-point sight lines. That is, in Lou's terms, it's taken care of by the pre-shot routine :). Once those sight lines are acquired, if the horizontal distance between the perceived CTE sight line and the CB-GB line is calculable, and sufficiently nearly constant over an acceptably short linear distance along the CB-GB line, then in principle there is no "feel" left in the system. Though that would be rather like saying that in principle there's no "feel" involved in the ghost ball system, when, of course, in reality there is.

Whether the system is "exact" depends in part on how you define that. I'm not very happy with any of the definitions I've seen, though Mike Page's had the great virtue of being clear. I think I'd consider the system "exact" in principle if, from the information available to the system, a function existed that for arbitrary cut angles could calculate a bridge point on the CB-GB line that lay within an acceptable bridge length of the cue ball. Is that possible? I don't know, and I spent enough time with mathematical constructivists that I don't like guessing about such things. And that begs the question of whether such "exactness" would have any practical use at the table.
 
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I don't know, and I spent enough time with mathematical constructivists that I don't like guessing about such things. And that begs the question of whether such "exactness" would have any practical use at the table.

Jwpretd,
I think that the above statement is the most applicable thing Ive heard concerning the arguments between the camps thus far.

When I am using my method and I see or know that I need to line up with a thick hit on the ball and play opposing English sofly to get the position that I need for the next shot and ensuing run I have to ask myself what was this arguement between the cte'ers and naysayers about?

Exactness?

It doesnt seem to me anyone has the time to run up and take measurements on the ball. It seems to me that this is a visual art and making balls is only a part of the game. Calculating shots, knowing when to aim thick, thin because of squirt, knowing how to bank, kick safe is an extremely visual situation and very far from the use of any systems exactness. The reason being is that the exactness may pot the shot but then what of distance and squirt, not to mention stroke application.

I have to agree in that these systems pot shots because from the educated replys people seem to be figuring out how to make them do that with center ball but then What about the rest of the game?

The part that is so finite that it can surely be explained but how long are you going to take to shoot?

For myself its Pool. Its a game on a table with pockets and rails. The object is to learn to make the ball with the ensuing English to get you in position to run out and its visual. You have to develop visual skills in order to do so. Over complicating the issue does not seem to help but we have evidence that some players develop perceptions that enable them to do this time and again. Those perceptions are all important visual skills perhaps we ought to ask some of those folks what they are doing and not the physicist.

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
Lou,
It's true that most of this is out of charcter for me but the truth is I wanted to give the Naysayers a taste of what they've been giving many forum member for years.

JoeyA


But you're not very good at it, Joey and like I said you come off more like Fast Larry. Maybe you should leave the "zingers" (or in your case the clunkers) to others.

Bottom line is that this behavior is no longer "out of character" for you. You've been at it so long and have gone through so much blue ink that it now is your character.

A little ways back up you described your internet posting philosophy and I know were that comes from -- you and I having had that telephone conversation way back when in the RSB-era. But I didn't tell you everything and you are missing a very important element. Think on it.

Lou Figueroa
 
I mostly agree about one step, though I'd say that there's really only one aim line - the CB-GB line - and that the intent of CTE/ProOne is to help the player reliably locate that line.

I think very nearly all of the "feel", "adjustment", "intuition", "judgement', etc, is absorbed by the act of acquiring the CTE and edge-to-aim-point sight lines. That is, in Lou's terms, it's taken care of by the pre-shot routine :).


All the lines and edges are immaterial. What is happening is that instead of waving their cue sticks all around in the air -- differently each time they come to the table -- players attempting to employ this system are now approaching the table -- not only in a more consistent manner -- but online with the CB. And they are paying attention, maybe for the first time, and really looking at the CB and OB. From there their feel and intuition take over and they make the small incremental adjustments to try and pocket balls That's why people see improved performance -- they are already on a line that is close *but not exact.*

Lou Figueroa
 
But you're not very good at it, Joey and like I said you come off more like Fast Larry. Maybe you should leave the "zingers" (or in your case the clunkers) to others.

Bottom line is that this behavior is no longer "out of character" for you. You've been at it so long and have gone through so much blue ink that it now is your character.

A little ways back up you described your internet posting philosophy and I know were that comes from -- you and I having had that telephone conversation way back when in the RSB-era. But I didn't tell you everything and you are missing a very important element. Think on it.

Lou Figueroa

Yes Lou, you and Patrick are far better at making snide remarks and ridiculing forum posters than I am but I try to respond to your efforts as best I can.

JoeyA
 
Yes Lou, you and Patrick are far better at making snide remarks and ridiculing forum posters than I am but I try to respond to your efforts as best I can.

JoeyA

LOL! Joey, you had Pat so frustrated he kicked a puppy yesterday. I think you're getting to them. ;)
 
LOL! Joey, you had Pat so frustrated he kicked a puppy yesterday. I think you're getting to them. ;)

Hahahaha. The naysayers will probably accuse me of contributing to the mistreatment of puppies now. Louie will probably say that Michael Vick and I are good buddies. :D
 
For starters, blue text is gay.
Sorry Joey

Oh, and by the way...

If this system had any merit to it at all, and I mean even 1% value or improvement to one's game, we all KNOW Earl would be using it. He tries every gimmick and silly idea out there. I have yet to see him pivot like a goof.
 
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For starters, blue text is gay.
Sorry Joey

Oh, and by the way...

If this system had any merit to it at all, and I mean even 1% value or improvement to one's game, we all KNOW Earl would be using it. He tries every gimmick and silly idea out there. I have yet to see him pivot like a goof.

Guy seriously, you dont belong in this cte discussion, read but dont post silly stuff like that. You have zero understanding of cte,the dvd or this discussion.
 
All the lines and edges are immaterial. What is happening is that instead of waving their cue sticks all around in the air -- differently each time they come to the table -- players attempting to employ this system are now approaching the table -- not only in a more consistent manner -- but online with the CB. And they are paying attention, maybe for the first time, and really looking at the CB and OB. From there their feel and intuition take over and they make the small incremental adjustments to try and pocket balls That's why people see improved performance -- they are already on a line that is close *but not exact.*

Lou Figueroa

Bingo.

No, Double Bingo!
 
All the lines and edges are immaterial. really, you think there immaterial? What is happening is that instead of waving their cue sticks all around in the air -- differently each time they come to the table -- players attempting to employ this system are now approaching the table -- not only in a more consistent manner what has helped them do this? -- but online with the CB. And they are paying attention, maybe for the first time, and really looking at the CB and OB.what has helped them do this? From there their feel and intuition take over and they make the small incremental adjustments There are adjustment that need to be made sometimes like everything and what you consider feel, i may not to try and pocket balls That's why people see improved performance I believe this is the reason for buying Stans aiming system? -- they are already on a line that is close *but not exact.* I guess someone does not know stans meaning of exact.

Funny people around here :) bingo!
 
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