Need Help Identifying Table Manufacturer

[Cigar Guy]

My billiard table looks exactly like a Peter Vitalie Lord Nelson model, however the Peter Vitalie Company did not start business operations until 1988 and I have owned the table since 1986. There is no date or manufacturer's name or marking anywhere on the table. It is a 6 leg, full size 8 foot table with leather pockets. The slate is a little more than a full inch thick, in 3 pieces sitting on a frame constructed of 2x12 inch boards. The only marking is the word “Glaze” written in magic marker on the underside of one of the side boards. All of the woodwork appears to be hand carved and the leather pockets hand tooled. It’s definitely a well-made table.

I have no knowledge of its history except that it had to have been built before 1984, which was when I first saw it in the “Ball Room” (approx. 2000 sq. ft. separate building solely used for entertaining) on an estate purchased by the friend I acquired it from, from which I draw the conclusion that it wasn’t cheap.

Does anyone know what the Vitalie Lord Nelson table was based on? Was the Lord Nelson a copy of a preexisting design? I’ve attached several pictures of the underside in case the method of construction is recognizably specific to a particular manufacturer.

Any information or even an idea of its origin would be greatly appreciated.

 

[snookered_again]

it might be oak but this isnt; fine quality oak, just going by the grain patterns. If you see particleboard you kow it's as recent as the particleboard and if it has plywood, that only dates back so far too. If you see plywood one thing to look at is the thickness of the plys and what they are. old plywood had thicker plys.
perhaps some hand tooling was used but I think this is likely machine carving..
another thing to look for is if the carvings are applied or a part of the wood itself you can see by the way the grain pattern changes in some of the ornamentation that it is not the same piece of wood. This means the carving was glued on.. another way to date things is to look at the fasteners themselves, older wood screws look different because their manufacture evolved over time, nowadays they are basically stamped out, same for modern bolts. most are no longer threaded by machine. another thing to look at is how much the wood underneath where it has not been touched has darkened If you look at older antiques you will see more darkening. another sign is wood shrinkage. on an antique you will see the results of wood shrinkage f you now what to look for, you can see how it shifted during years of wood shrinkage.

hand carvings have more variances than machien carvings so you can measure dimensions of thecarving, if you see very close tolerances in the carving itself as it is stepped along, thats a sign of machine carving.. an easy way to try to make machien carving look like hand carving is to do a bit of work to create differences leading them to believe its hand made when it is machine made.

look for repwood carvings, often people think thye are seeing carvings when they are in fact applied repwood, which is a molding process, not carving at all.

everything made by man or machine will have it's maker's marks , the things that didn't quite get sanded out can be evidence. even hand sanfding or machien sanding leaves it's tracks. existence of hide ( hoof) glue or more modrn glues can help differentiate age. in the 30's they used hide glue but there was a time of converson to modern glue types, so thats a sign

if its imortant enough to know and an antique is older it is possible to examine the rings of the wood and their spacing, thi sis a fingerprint of time, kind of a bit like a scan code, the sequences of thicker and thinner lines indicate the seasons and when these patterns areexamined by experts they can accurately date when the tree grew.

old lumber , like oak found in old english antiques grew in close proximity, that meant the trees grew slowly, in general wood whicn grew up fast due to the forest being less dense produced wood wiht wide growth rings, if you see very tiny growth rings that meand that the tree grew slowly and in competition. when I look at the wood that table is made with it's not quartersawn and fine quality oak, Its more like the sort of wood available today than something very old. The maker has some choices of his selection of wood available at the time of manufacture but of course this is also a financial consideration.

 

[maha]

import is the consensus but it looks nice and if it plays like you want you have what you want.

and without any nameplates it has no extra value and never will. and no way to tell or convince anyone but yourself what it is.
just a pretty table that plays well.

 

[garczar]

it might be oak but this isnt; fine quality oak, just going by the grain patterns. If you see particleboard you kow it's as recent as the particleboard and if it has plywood, that only dates back so far too. If you see plywood one thing to look at is the thickness of the plys and what they are. old plywood had thicker plys.
perhaps some hand tooling was used but I think this is likely machine carving..
another thing to look for is if the carvings are applied or a part of the wood itself you can see by the way the grain pattern changes in some of the ornamentation that it is not the same piece of wood. This means the carving was glued on.. another way to date things is to look at the fasteners themselves, older wood screws look different because their manufacture evolved over time, nowadays they are basically stamped out, same for modern bolts. most are no longer threaded by machine. another thing to look at is how much the wood underneath where it has not been touched has darkened If you look at older antiques you will see more darkening. another sign is wood shrinkage. on an antique you will see the results of wood shrinkage f you now what to look for, you can see how it shifted during years of wood shrinkage.

hand carvings have more variances than machien carvings so you can measure dimensions of thecarving, if you see very close tolerances in the carving itself as it is stepped along, thats a sign of machine carving.. an easy way to try to make machien carving look like hand carving is to do a bit of work to create differences leading them to believe its hand made when it is machine made.

look for repwood carvings, often people think thye are seeing carvings when they are in fact applied repwood, which is a molding process, not carving at all.

everything made by man or machine will have it's maker's marks , the things that didn't quite get sanded out can be evidence. even hand sanfding or machien sanding leaves it's tracks. existence of hide ( hoof) glue or more modrn glues can help differentiate age. in the 30's they used hide glue but there was a time of converson to modern glue types, so thats a sign

if its imortant enough to know and an antique is older it is possible to examine the rings of the wood and their spacing, thi sis a fingerprint of time, kind of a bit like a scan code, the sequences of thicker and thinner lines indicate the seasons and when these patterns areexamined by experts they can accurately date when the tree grew.

old lumber , like oak found in old english antiques grew in close proximity, that meant the trees grew slowly, in general wood whicn grew up fast due to the forest being less dense produced wood wiht wide growth rings, if you see very tiny growth rings that meand that the tree grew slowly and in competition. when I look at the wood that table is made with it's not quartersawn and fine quality oak, Its more like the sort of wood available today than something very old. The maker has some choices of his selection of wood available at the time of manufacture but of course this is also a financial consideration.

just can't help yourself. does every reply require half a page? i see this much print and i skip it every time. like to hear yourself talk too i bet.

 

[snookered_again]

just can't help yourself. does every reply require half a page? i see this much print and i skip it every time. like to hear yourself talk too i bet.

Sorry to hear you are having such troubles.. If you like, what you can do is scroll down any post you want to read and see how long it is. Then if you feel its too long for you to read, just skip the post. This way you wont need to go insulting other posters, and you'll be down to the next post in a second or two.

 

[snookered_again]

I wonderif chinese slate is identifiable. I have a 1970's Brunswick and it said on the slate it's ffrom Italy. I have an old Brunswick Balk Collender and that slate is from Vermont. the Vermont slate is ok on top but quite a few voids on the backside, its also sort of hand worked. It looked to me like it had some handwork done and I could see some waves and marks that could be improved. It seemed to reflect that the factory had some sort of quality level threshold.. Perhaps making the slates flat took manual labor but as time progessed it probably got perfected more by improvements in machine cutting and finishing.

Someone that sees more slates might be able to tell you more, and there could be an ink stamp on top or under the slate. My BBC has number stamps that match on every wood part including the slate backers. wiping the slate down with a damp cloth and a good flashlight might reveal something that gives a clue. careful though, an ink stamp may also wash off. on my BBC it says "head" on the topside.

wherever its made , won't matter, its very ornate and impressive looking and if it serves you well that's all that's really important.

You might google images of other pool tables and scan through looking for similar ones and take notes from any auctions etc. You might piece info together if you find a similar one for sale. It's pretty unmistakable against any other table. I don't doubt that even an American table , if made today , has parts made elsewhere.

I get free lumber from a place that imports container loads of countertop material from China . that's not slate though it's a different type of stone used for countertops, I suspect with all the high rises they get huge orders for the same pieces. It looks very consistent and perfect.