Put a few poker machines in there and you wont need to be full. Most are set for 60/40 so its guaranteed money especially if you own them. You can buy them for around 2-3000, they'll pay for themselves in a month or less. I've watched the owners pull out 1-1500 a night per machine.
Need players' opinion on rates
- Thread starter dirtydog48
- Start date
A Mega-Touch machine is good for a few hundred bucks a week too, if it is in a busy place....
Gives the "Significant or Insignificant others" something to do when the men are runnin racks....
Gives the "Significant or Insignificant others" something to do when the men are runnin racks....
It sounds ...
like it is more a video arcade or family game room atmosphere, which will bring all the no money teenagers hanging out at your place. This will drive away older adults as they usually do not want to be privy to all the trials and tribulations of being a teenager.
You won't survive without food and drink. Even Greg Stevens (used to be)
had to put some type of food and drinks in to survive, otherwise people will not stay there long. Quite frankly, this sounds like a pipedream to me operating on a shoestring, and you think you're going to be pulling in people off the street.
Most players miss a lot of shots on a bar table, don't you think they get discouraged faster on a big table when they can not make a ball more than
2" from the pocket. The A and B players you hope to get on the big table
are looking for friendly competion or a money game, and they require
something to drink and eat while doing it.
It's okay to have video machines, as long as they are away from tables.
I think you have a lot of aspirations that you will never reap. Your thinking about what is needed in not practical in the way of what will
bring 'PAYING' customers in for long periods of time.
I do not want to be around a bunch of drama laden teenagers (boyfriend-girlfriend fights, loud, noisy, bothersome, or teenagers talking loudly on their cellphones to get noticed by someone). I will be out the door fast.
And if I am thirsty or hungry, I would cut any game short except a real big money game, and go get something to drink and eat, and I don't want to interrupt a good game while doing it, like having to go next door, and leave
an unfinished game with balls on the table.
like it is more a video arcade or family game room atmosphere, which will bring all the no money teenagers hanging out at your place. This will drive away older adults as they usually do not want to be privy to all the trials and tribulations of being a teenager.
You won't survive without food and drink. Even Greg Stevens (used to be)
had to put some type of food and drinks in to survive, otherwise people will not stay there long. Quite frankly, this sounds like a pipedream to me operating on a shoestring, and you think you're going to be pulling in people off the street.
Most players miss a lot of shots on a bar table, don't you think they get discouraged faster on a big table when they can not make a ball more than
2" from the pocket. The A and B players you hope to get on the big table
are looking for friendly competion or a money game, and they require
something to drink and eat while doing it.
It's okay to have video machines, as long as they are away from tables.
I think you have a lot of aspirations that you will never reap. Your thinking about what is needed in not practical in the way of what will
bring 'PAYING' customers in for long periods of time.
I do not want to be around a bunch of drama laden teenagers (boyfriend-girlfriend fights, loud, noisy, bothersome, or teenagers talking loudly on their cellphones to get noticed by someone). I will be out the door fast.
And if I am thirsty or hungry, I would cut any game short except a real big money game, and go get something to drink and eat, and I don't want to interrupt a good game while doing it, like having to go next door, and leave
an unfinished game with balls on the table.
just my two cents....one of my fav pool rooms was Shakespeares in Denver because it had ample space, nightlife, and a bar/food if you wanted that was planted in the middle with tables around it. the ball counter was separate and it just seemed to be a great setup.
the prices you suggested above would be wonderful in CT, but wouldn't happen - $5/hr seems reasonable to me, however, Austin was around $9/hr when i lived there. i always thought that a monthly fee would be a great idea as a player, but not sure how that would work for the owners. one set fee, unlimited play during day hours and nights would have to be thought about a bit.
9balllvr
the prices you suggested above would be wonderful in CT, but wouldn't happen - $5/hr seems reasonable to me, however, Austin was around $9/hr when i lived there. i always thought that a monthly fee would be a great idea as a player, but not sure how that would work for the owners. one set fee, unlimited play during day hours and nights would have to be thought about a bit.
9balllvr
Gary
Congrats on the latest promotion, can't even keep up with your progress! Might need help later, but you sound way busy working.
To all you naysayers, thanks. It is useful to hear those opinions about potential pitfalls.
There will be limited food and drink (vending and microwave) and there is great deli and pizza place next door that delivers.
Someone suggested an idea the other night that may have merit concerning controlling the teen crowd. If they do not have a drivers license, they need a permission slip from the parents. Interesting idea? That should stir up some comments.
Congrats on the latest promotion, can't even keep up with your progress! Might need help later, but you sound way busy working.
To all you naysayers, thanks. It is useful to hear those opinions about potential pitfalls.
There will be limited food and drink (vending and microwave) and there is great deli and pizza place next door that delivers.
Someone suggested an idea the other night that may have merit concerning controlling the teen crowd. If they do not have a drivers license, they need a permission slip from the parents. Interesting idea? That should stir up some comments.
Thanks Earl, and congrats to you as well.
I am excited were gonna have another room in Flint, and being it will be yours, I am sure it will be a first class pool room.
I am excited were gonna have another room in Flint, and being it will be yours, I am sure it will be a first class pool room.
42NateBaller said:
You do understand that pool halls that open their place to pool leagues donate the table time don't you?
If you do not sell food and/or drinks I predict that you will be bankrupt in 6 months. That is if you have $100,000 cash on hand for the start up.
Keep in mind that part of the nut is knowing how much salary you and your partners want to draw.
Jake
Jjinfla
Dude, you sound like you got burned good!! Thanks for your concern, but we could not burn $100k if we never rented a table for 2 years.
We may try one coin-op, but my experience is that kids will tie up the table for $.50 and neck and hang out for hours. Leagues do not play free around here but I don't intend to seek that business as I will only have 8 tables anyway. We intend to be a relatively serious room where one is welcome to play and have the opportunity to get better through mentoring. Casual players are welcome also, but the younger crowd will behave.
Thanks again for all the comments.
Dude, you sound like you got burned good!! Thanks for your concern, but we could not burn $100k if we never rented a table for 2 years.
We may try one coin-op, but my experience is that kids will tie up the table for $.50 and neck and hang out for hours. Leagues do not play free around here but I don't intend to seek that business as I will only have 8 tables anyway. We intend to be a relatively serious room where one is welcome to play and have the opportunity to get better through mentoring. Casual players are welcome also, but the younger crowd will behave.
Thanks again for all the comments.
Simple math
Dude....i'm thinking you have never started or participated in the running of a business before....
You hope/need to do 100/day in business,
Thats 3k/month.
You and your 3 peeps will split the 84 hrs a week, i assume it will only take 1 person at a time to work there.
84 x 4 = 336 hrs/month open
3000/336 = ~9/hr
Employee pay = 6/hr
Tax contributions (did you even think of this) per hour per employee = about 1/hr.
So that leaves you 2/hr for rent/electricity/maintenance/water/table upkeep/etc etc etc....
You are not even in the same city or state as "break-even" and in a different universe from "profit"
Dude....i'm thinking you have never started or participated in the running of a business before....
You hope/need to do 100/day in business,
Thats 3k/month.
You and your 3 peeps will split the 84 hrs a week, i assume it will only take 1 person at a time to work there.
84 x 4 = 336 hrs/month open
3000/336 = ~9/hr
Employee pay = 6/hr
Tax contributions (did you even think of this) per hour per employee = about 1/hr.
So that leaves you 2/hr for rent/electricity/maintenance/water/table upkeep/etc etc etc....
You are not even in the same city or state as "break-even" and in a different universe from "profit"
by the way, of that 2/hr you are hoping for, you said electricity will likely be 500/month
500/336 = 1.48
So that leaves 0.52/hr for the rest of your expenses/profit after employee pay/tax contributions/electricity.....
500/336 = 1.48
So that leaves 0.52/hr for the rest of your expenses/profit after employee pay/tax contributions/electricity.....
Jcrack
Thanks for the input. Yes, I have run several successful business over the years and the results of that is supporting this. All the employees have a stake in creating a great pool room, but do not get paid with anything but pool time. Everything else is about money, money, money. Hopefully this will be something more. No one has enough invested to go broke.
That attitude will extend to the customers and hopefully create a great competitive, nurturing atmosphere. If you want to hang out to try to rob the customers, you will not be around long. If you want some straight up action, you can get played.
8 other rooms have failed in this area in the last 10 years. Several had great food and lots of booze, but still failed. They were confused about what they were; bar, restaurant, kereyoke room, or pool room. We are not confused, this will just be a great little place to play pool, learn to play pool and compete.
Thanks for the input. Yes, I have run several successful business over the years and the results of that is supporting this. All the employees have a stake in creating a great pool room, but do not get paid with anything but pool time. Everything else is about money, money, money. Hopefully this will be something more. No one has enough invested to go broke.
That attitude will extend to the customers and hopefully create a great competitive, nurturing atmosphere. If you want to hang out to try to rob the customers, you will not be around long. If you want some straight up action, you can get played.
8 other rooms have failed in this area in the last 10 years. Several had great food and lots of booze, but still failed. They were confused about what they were; bar, restaurant, kereyoke room, or pool room. We are not confused, this will just be a great little place to play pool, learn to play pool and compete.
Being I know DirtyDog pretty well, I can assure you he knows the in's and out's of running a buisness.
I also know that he is probably the most passionate person I know when it comes to Billiards. It is his life through and through and means an awefull lot to him.
I know this isn't his idea of a huge scale pool room that caters to everyone, this is more a "Players Room" that he and his close friends can call home.
Dirt's a True student of the game and studies every angle of it and will drop what he is doing to help someone if he spots a deficency in their game that he thinks they might not be aware of. He has done it very tactfully to me in the past and I learned a lot from it and appreciated it a ton.
Don't worry, I will talk him into the huge upscale retirement Pool Hall in short time, and might be interested in going partners with him as he is the only one in this county I trust will operate a 1st class place and run it the right way....
I also know that he is probably the most passionate person I know when it comes to Billiards. It is his life through and through and means an awefull lot to him.
I know this isn't his idea of a huge scale pool room that caters to everyone, this is more a "Players Room" that he and his close friends can call home.
Dirt's a True student of the game and studies every angle of it and will drop what he is doing to help someone if he spots a deficency in their game that he thinks they might not be aware of. He has done it very tactfully to me in the past and I learned a lot from it and appreciated it a ton.
Don't worry, I will talk him into the huge upscale retirement Pool Hall in short time, and might be interested in going partners with him as he is the only one in this county I trust will operate a 1st class place and run it the right way....
Sounds good. I wouldnt mind hanging out there if it wasnt 2000 miles away, lol.
I would say if this is a "retirement gig" (joking aside) and you absolutely dont need income from it, and are shielded from loss (via all volunteer staff, low or no rent, and can always sell the tables) then its a no brainer.
I'm not sure what the action is like out there, but it sounds like you are respected so I would work on getting the non-nits to steer action your way, give about 5 of them free pool time if they can get people in the door. No bums.
If you are just doing the candy and coke machine, MAKE SURE IT IS ALWAYS FULL (i would just buy a couple of used machines, that way you get the keys and can fix any problems ---> "there no more root beer."
Put a microwave in there and have bags of popcorn in the candy machine, and allow people to bring their own food (of course)....
Have some couches and a few tvs and throw in some wal-mart chess/checkers games and a couple decks of cards......
A couple broads in the back dancing might be good, but i dont think itll fit into the budget.......
Ohh and offer to video tape matchups if both gamblers agree.....for big matchups, give each player a free copy, sell copies to the usual suspects (you can do VHS or learn to make DVD's in a few weeks)....
That would be a sweet club.
I would say if this is a "retirement gig" (joking aside) and you absolutely dont need income from it, and are shielded from loss (via all volunteer staff, low or no rent, and can always sell the tables) then its a no brainer.
I'm not sure what the action is like out there, but it sounds like you are respected so I would work on getting the non-nits to steer action your way, give about 5 of them free pool time if they can get people in the door. No bums.
If you are just doing the candy and coke machine, MAKE SURE IT IS ALWAYS FULL (i would just buy a couple of used machines, that way you get the keys and can fix any problems ---> "there no more root beer."
Put a microwave in there and have bags of popcorn in the candy machine, and allow people to bring their own food (of course)....
Have some couches and a few tvs and throw in some wal-mart chess/checkers games and a couple decks of cards......
A couple broads in the back dancing might be good, but i dont think itll fit into the budget.......
Ohh and offer to video tape matchups if both gamblers agree.....for big matchups, give each player a free copy, sell copies to the usual suspects (you can do VHS or learn to make DVD's in a few weeks)....
That would be a sweet club.
dirtydog48 said:
dirtydog48 said:
It sounds like your concept is similar to the room I play in in Japan. Six 9ft tables, one owner-operator who has time to play while running the place, or free table time for a reliable regular or semi-partner when the owner is in action at tournament or match or girlfriend time/errands elsewhere.
Time is per person/hr, in Yen 500 for "members" and 600 for the general public who just walk in. U.S. money this would be about $4.50 to $5.50 per person/hr. No hourly table rates, just per person, however there is a deal of 3,000 yen or about $24 for a daily rate, meaning if you spend more than 6hrs/day playing your bill is the flat daily rate so you get a break if you play longer. Obviously your region will differ in rates appropriate to the clientele, but consider the ratios.
"Membership" is loose, meaning a regular, and who usually keeps his cue in a locker or on a wall rack (theft isn't a real issue here).
They also put your name up on the wall, with a class ranking of A B or C, the handicaps being 5, 4, or 3. Meaning if a B matches up with a C, it is a short race with the B needing 4 games to a C player needing 3. Any visiting pros are considered a plus for the place in reputation and chances for lower-ranked players to see how the game should really be played, so they get free table time as a complimentary (and ShortStop or pro class players in the weekly tournament have to get to 6 games before the A B or C gets to 5, 4, or 3).
These handicaps are well known in Japan and pretty fair overall, so I doubt the APA with it's dubious "equalizer" sandbagg-able system will gain much toehold here. Ladies A, B, and C classes are spotted an extra game, so for example a ladies A-class against an A player gets a 5-4 handicap, since as in US or on AZBilliards, they are in lesser numbers and maybe represent about 7% of the total pool-playing universe, and thus deserve favorable consideration for the following reasons: they are generally polite, young, lovely, and contribute to proper decorum and should thus be encouraged into the world of billiards, not least of which so that some players may yet meet a marriageable prospect who approves of the game itself. It's a cheap spot for all those benefits, and frankly ladies night has just never caught on here yet.
The two best tables are to the front and away from the door and reserved for members only with Simonis 760 blue and green, walk-ins are given tables furthest away towards the windows and daytime sunshine so they don't bump into regulars playing ring-game 9-ball with $10 riding on the outcome of the shot of the nine into the side. Membership has its privileges.
Local weekly tournament, C-class players entry about $10, B-class $15, and A-class $20. Usually about 16 entries, payoff is about $150 for first place, $75 for second. The owner adds a touch of gamble with a pill-bottle draw after the final match with the outsider or 2nd place player drawing a single 9, 8, or 7 pill, representing 90% 80% or 70% payout of all entry fees, the rest he keeps as greens fees. Larger tournaments he holds pay up to 4th place, with entry fees paid back for 3rd and 4th place. B-class players who get into the finals twice in a short time period are promoted up to A-class. That is a public step up in status and a feather in the cap, and a challenge to keep on beating up on your former B-class peers! Enjoy the new view from the top! And don't dog it or they will ride your ass and your wallet if possible to muck your confidence up. No more freebies.
Beginners are just that, or social 8-ball players, let them have fun with the game. C-class are interested in improving their skills in the game, can make a few balls and have some idea about position and 9-ball play. B-class players are either straight shooters with some idea of position play but can't execute well consistently, or better position players with fair shotmaking ability and the idea of right-side wrong-side of the ball, and while mostly are 9-ball offensive players, occasionally they know when to play a safety. Dangerous if they get the first couple of games under thier belt and start shooting at you with confidence. Lower class B players can run out, but are more likely to dog a late ball or miss position, while upper-level B players can usually get out with 5 balls or less on the table. A-class players know all of the above, and how to win, are a threat from anywhere, will focus and not be sharked, can string some racks, and can also kick or jump out of trouble as well, outcome often depends on the rolls. B's are thrilled to win against an A player, it means they did good or got lucky and caught them (uhhhmmm, me) on an off day looking only one ball ahead, not 9 or 3.
Time open is from 3pm to about 3am or when business drops off and the owner is tired. He spends some time sleeping on the couch when not practicing, watching TV or VCR tapes, or playing the 2 soft-top dart machines now popular in Japan or the video Mahjong or poker type games in back, but is alert to the door opening sounds or regulars let him know he is needed up front to deal with tradesmen or new customers. These game machines are split-revenue with a company, not owned by the business, because otherwise Yakuza gangsters may try to horn in for a split on an extortion or "protection" type racket and he doesn't want that hassle. Same for the Coke and Cigarette machines, a service to customers. On food, he keeps a hot water pot handy for those buying instant Ramen noodles from him 2X markup, a small supply.
On the alcohol issue, he keeps a small supply perhaps a case each on hand of refrigerated canned beer (Kirin Ichiban Shibori) bottled beer (Corona), canned Chu Hai (a salty-dog, grapefruit/vodka type), and bottled Zima. Restocked once a week or so. 2X retail markup again, but we thirsty types are grateful to pay extra for the convenience. Curiously, general public/social players/dates can buy, and C and B players, but once you get to A-class, the owner insists you can only drink after you are done playing... a respect for the game thing, no sloppy drunk A players tolerated. Solo practice OK, but in match play no drinking, be all you can be, best effort, etc. And if he notices behaviour problems with regulars or others due to alcohol he sets limits of 5 beers/day or whatever is necessary to eliminate trouble. And it works. His place his rules respect it love it or leave it, no assholes causing problems for others tolerated for long. Little noise, low-level background music, and the pool hall runs niceley on.
One other normal item in Japan... the Oshibori, or hot hand towel... perfect for wiping down the stick and hands to remove chalk grime.
Just some ideas from the land of Wa, or harmony, in Japan.
Good luck!
Kevin
What's the status on the pool room, DirtyDawg???
Got any tables in there yet?
Got any tables in there yet?
Today
We finally got the building permit for the mods. Am crossing all the t's and dotting the i's as far as the township goes and it included board meeting and public hearing. Now it is a go and demolition starts this weekend. Should take about 2 weeks to redo/ad a bathroom and make handicap accessible. HVAC will begin next week putting up new duct work, hoping to save old unit, but will replace if needed. Chuck G is building knock-off Diamond lights (won't pay $700/800 for a light!) with the chromed diffusers that should be killer. Building a 4' by 10' for the golf table and 2' by 8' for the 9 footers. These are similar to Diamond's tournament lights but brighter due to use of 3 phase double fixtures.
The golf table and 3 GC III's arrive middle of next week, the 3 barboxes and the other GC III the week after. Larry F. and I will be setting them up when remodel is done, carpet cleaned and new tile is layed, probably last wk of July or first of August. All new 860 on 9 footers and 760 on 6' by 12'. New Arimith Pro balls with 3 extra measle balls for those who want them. 2 sets of golf balls, 2and 1/4" and 2 and 1/8".
The room will do 11 tables, but we are waiting to see what the market wants; more 9', billiard, 7', or maybe even an 8' or 2.
Thanks for the interest G. and I'll see you there. I have some slick guerilla marketing techniques I'll share with you then.
Hopefully the toughest is done and final inspection goes smoothly.
E.
We finally got the building permit for the mods. Am crossing all the t's and dotting the i's as far as the township goes and it included board meeting and public hearing. Now it is a go and demolition starts this weekend. Should take about 2 weeks to redo/ad a bathroom and make handicap accessible. HVAC will begin next week putting up new duct work, hoping to save old unit, but will replace if needed. Chuck G is building knock-off Diamond lights (won't pay $700/800 for a light!) with the chromed diffusers that should be killer. Building a 4' by 10' for the golf table and 2' by 8' for the 9 footers. These are similar to Diamond's tournament lights but brighter due to use of 3 phase double fixtures.
The golf table and 3 GC III's arrive middle of next week, the 3 barboxes and the other GC III the week after. Larry F. and I will be setting them up when remodel is done, carpet cleaned and new tile is layed, probably last wk of July or first of August. All new 860 on 9 footers and 760 on 6' by 12'. New Arimith Pro balls with 3 extra measle balls for those who want them. 2 sets of golf balls, 2and 1/4" and 2 and 1/8".
The room will do 11 tables, but we are waiting to see what the market wants; more 9', billiard, 7', or maybe even an 8' or 2.
Thanks for the interest G. and I'll see you there. I have some slick guerilla marketing techniques I'll share with you then.
Hopefully the toughest is done and final inspection goes smoothly.
E.
maybe this'll be helpful......
I haven't read many of the other responses but here's some info about the nicest hall we have here in Boise, ID. The place is Backstreet Billiards and charges table times a few different ways. Seems like there are enough options for everyone.
We have:
Four 6ft. barboxes that are coin operated ($.75/game)
Four 6ft. barboxes that are $6/hr flat rate.
Ten Lehmacher 9ft. tables:
1 player $6/hr.
2 players $8/hr.
3 and up $10/hr.
One Lehmacher carom table which i believe is $8/hr flat rate but I don't play on it often so i'm not certain about that.
Two Lehmacher 6x12 snooker tables
2 players $9/hr
3 and up $10/hr
Those are the hourly rates for all the tables in the house. Nice equipment, especially the 9 footers.
In addition to the hourly option, they also sell monthly or yearly membership. It's $75 per month or I believe it's $600/year for unlimited time on the 9ft tables. The exception is that when walk in business is willing to pay hourly for a 9ft, then members get the boot unless they choose to pay hourly. To me, that's fair and it happens only on peak times such as Fri. and Sat. nights. If I'm dying to shoot, I don't mind paying, but usually I shoot earlier in the evening when it's a bit more laid back. Also, snooker and 3 cushion is not included in the membership.
We have a few video games, four dart boards, beer and wine, and food as well. I could live without the food, but snacks would be a nice supplement. Cold beers are nice on a hot day...or, now that I think of it, any time that I'm parched!
Hope some of this helps you. Good luck with the hall!
I haven't read many of the other responses but here's some info about the nicest hall we have here in Boise, ID. The place is Backstreet Billiards and charges table times a few different ways. Seems like there are enough options for everyone.
We have:
Four 6ft. barboxes that are coin operated ($.75/game)
Four 6ft. barboxes that are $6/hr flat rate.
Ten Lehmacher 9ft. tables:
1 player $6/hr.
2 players $8/hr.
3 and up $10/hr.
One Lehmacher carom table which i believe is $8/hr flat rate but I don't play on it often so i'm not certain about that.
Two Lehmacher 6x12 snooker tables
2 players $9/hr
3 and up $10/hr
Those are the hourly rates for all the tables in the house. Nice equipment, especially the 9 footers.
In addition to the hourly option, they also sell monthly or yearly membership. It's $75 per month or I believe it's $600/year for unlimited time on the 9ft tables. The exception is that when walk in business is willing to pay hourly for a 9ft, then members get the boot unless they choose to pay hourly. To me, that's fair and it happens only on peak times such as Fri. and Sat. nights. If I'm dying to shoot, I don't mind paying, but usually I shoot earlier in the evening when it's a bit more laid back. Also, snooker and 3 cushion is not included in the membership.
We have a few video games, four dart boards, beer and wine, and food as well. I could live without the food, but snacks would be a nice supplement. Cold beers are nice on a hot day...or, now that I think of it, any time that I'm parched!
Hope some of this helps you. Good luck with the hall!
You're not Really putting Simonis on the Snooker table are you...........
There is a Special cloth for a Snooker table which reacts and plays much different than Simonis.
Pool and Darts has it in stock, and I believe Joe Rackem has it too.
Not sure of the difference, but when I was looking at getting a Snooker table last year, they advised me to NOT put on Simonis, unless I never wanted to enjoy shooting on it...
Just a thought.
Again, let me know if I can be of an assistance since I am an extreem night owl..
There is a Special cloth for a Snooker table which reacts and plays much different than Simonis.
Pool and Darts has it in stock, and I believe Joe Rackem has it too.
Not sure of the difference, but when I was looking at getting a Snooker table last year, they advised me to NOT put on Simonis, unless I never wanted to enjoy shooting on it...
Just a thought.
Again, let me know if I can be of an assistance since I am an extreem night owl..
Last edited:
Granita
makes a cloth for snooker and Simonis has what they call 300. Both are options, but Stix has 760 on theirs and it plays great. It's not carved in stone.
makes a cloth for snooker and Simonis has what they call 300. Both are options, but Stix has 760 on theirs and it plays great. It's not carved in stone.