New Cue (Filipino Custom) Opinions wanted.

[Icon of Sin]

First let me start by saying I have read a lot on here about cues made in the Phillipines and how they warp over here due to the materials and humidity difference. However after seeing this cue (and knowing the guy selling it) i think this could be an exception.

The guy selling the cue is a friend and Filipino that I shoot league with every Monday. He wouldnt rip us off because we see him every week. Apparently this cue is made by an UNKNOWN maker in the Phillipines. The guy selling it got it from a friend who lives there and asked him to sell it while here.

Along the lines of details of the cue and transaction. My father bought the cue for $250. It came with 2 shafts and joint protectors which appear to be custom (they match the wood on the cue). It has 60 inlays, not a sticker, you can see minor differences with each one to show the craftsmanship. the inlays are white (the pictures shows a yellowish tint due to poor lighting) and are sharp coming to a nice point. We were told they are NOT ivory. the joint pin is steel and not a uniloc style (sorry, forgot to take pics of it while it was here). The tips appear to be triangle tips, but Im guessing on that. The wrap is a black leather wrap. There are NO IDENTIFYING MARKS on the cue. I looked under the buttcap as well. It feels like its a little over 19.5oz, but we havnt had it weighed yet. the wood appears to be a dark Rosewood or possibly ebony. The cue hits fantastic and was only hit with once before us and is in near mint condition. (No scratches on butt anywhere, no dings in shafts, just some chalk on the tip) It is straight (for now at least time will tell after some things I have read about Phillipine Cues). We are working with the seller to find a name of the maker. Above all, the cue hits fantastic!

Just wanted to get some opinions. Below are 3 pics of the cue. Follow this link for higher quality pics: http://balisong.theasylum.org/IconOfSin/other/Filipino Cue/hi qual/

 

[gracie101681]

my dad made that cue, icon.. i remember selling the cue to a Filipino from MD.. i could give out all the info you need and prolly better pics.. yeah,it isnt uniloc and it has no ivory in it. i personally call that cue sword cue..umm,i like giving out names in my cues.. i havent heard from the guy after i sent him the cue. the cue weighs 19.6 oz ( there would be discrepancy, however ), 5/16 x 18 joint pin, cored by hard maple,ebony forearm.. i could send you pics if you want..much clearer..it is still here in my pc.. i just dont know how will i DL it here.. i sold it to him last May.

 

[Icon of Sin]

my dad made that cue, icon.. i remember selling the cue to a Filipino from MD.. i could give out all the info you need and prolly better pics.. yeah,it isnt uniloc and it has no ivory in it. i personally call that cue sword cue..umm,i like giving out names in my cues.. i havent heard from the guy after i sent him the cue. the cue weighs 19.6 oz ( there would be discrepancy, however ), 5/16 x 18 joint pin, cored by hard maple,ebony forearm.. i could send you pics if you want..much clearer..it is still here in my pc.. i just dont know how will i DL it here.. i sold it to him last May.

You are a dream come true. We were looking for more info on the cue and what happens? We run into the maker. Incredible.

I must say, it is a work of art and plays great. Im glad I was right on a lot of the details (being just over 19.5oz and ebony butt, im getting better at this).

Please fire me an email with the pictures you have if you could, and what is your fathers name, i would love to be able to put a name to the cue. Also any other details you have on it like Ferrule and inlay material would be great. Dad loves the "Sword" cue. workshop777@gmail.com

Thanks a million!!!!

PS. The guy that sold it to us is named Essex. Ring a bell?

 

[BillYards]

Of course Gracie cues are a "best kept secret" right now... I just got mine out and looked at it again this weekend and it is a lot of cue for the price.

The craftsmanship is going to compete with the best in the world eventually...

I have e-mailed back and forth with Grace many times and had a smooth transaction with him. He is very nice and friendly.

I also introduced him to the AZ Forum, since I saw all of the interest in cues from over there.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Of course Gracie cues are a "best kept secret" right now... I just got mine out and looked at it again this weekend and it is a lot of cue for the price.

The craftsmanship is going to compete with the best in the world eventually...

I have e-mailed back and forth with Grace many times and had a smooth transaction with him. He is very nice and friendly.

I also introduced him to the AZ Forum, since I saw all of the interest in cues from over there.

Yep, the news just keeps getting better. Thanks for the info Bill Yards!

 

[skins]

i believe this is a copy of Bill McDaniel's "Horseshoe" cue seen in the link below. what i can't understand is why non traditional cue makers can't come up with their own design work. worst of all they change things up slightly like make the design thicker in places and other things that ruin the design and make the cue look terrible. compare this cue to Bill's and you will see the big difference. the one in this thread looks bulky and not symmetrical and Bills looks perfect. why change it up any? if your gonna steal you might as well do it smartly. you can't improve on perfection. the maker now looks worse because he not only stole a design so he would not have to spend the time to get one right on his own but then butchers it. it's so funny and yet it's not. allot of them live off the hard work of others. this is this another case of blatant design theft.
http://www.billmcdaniel.com/horseshoe_full.htm

 

[gracie101681]

Of course Gracie cues are a "best kept secret" right now... I just got mine out and looked at it again this weekend and it is a lot of cue for the price.

The craftsmanship is going to compete with the best in the world eventually...

I have e-mailed back and forth with Grace many times and had a smooth transaction with him. He is very nice and friendly.

I also introduced him to the AZ Forum, since I saw all of the interest in cues from over there.

hey bill,

how are you? hahaha! i just got home from school.. yeah,thanks a bunch,sir..but i still cant download pics from here..i got used of just the copy-paste method.. any news? i have a new design here.. it is not yet finished..ummm.. tribal silver.. am not sure if you will like it but i will be very happy to show it to you once it is finished.. what's keeping you busy,sir?

 

[gracie101681]

You are a dream come true. We were looking for more info on the cue and what happens? We run into the maker. Incredible.

I must say, it is a work of art and plays great. Im glad I was right on a lot of the details (being just over 19.5oz and ebony butt, im getting better at this).

Please fire me an email with the pictures you have if you could, and what is your fathers name, i would love to be able to put a name to the cue. Also any other details you have on it like Ferrule and inlay material would be great. Dad loves the "Sword" cue. workshop777@gmail.com

Thanks a million!!!!

PS. The guy that sold it to us is named Essex. Ring a bell?

essex garcia.. yeah.. i will email you very soon..

 

[gracie101681]

Of course Gracie cues are a "best kept secret" right now... I just got mine out and looked at it again this weekend and it is a lot of cue for the price.

The craftsmanship is going to compete with the best in the world eventually...

I have e-mailed back and forth with Grace many times and had a smooth transaction with him. He is very nice and friendly.

I also introduced him to the AZ Forum, since I saw all of the interest in cues from over there.

and bill..am a she..see the avatar?

 

[Icon of Sin]

i believe this is a copy of Bill McDaniel's "Horseshoe" cue seen in the link below. what i can't understand is why non traditional cue makers can't come up with their own design work. worst of all they change things up slightly like make the design thicker in places and other things that ruin the design and make the cue look terrible. compare this cue to Bill's and you will see the big difference. the one in this thread looks bulky and not symmetrical and Bills looks perfect. why change it up any? if your gonna steal you might as well do it smartly. you can't improve on perfection. the maker now looks worse because he not only stole a design so he would not have to spend the time to get one right on his own but then butchers it. it's so funny and yet it's not. allot of them live off the hard work of others. this is this another case of blatant design theft.
http://www.billmcdaniel.com/horseshoe_full.htm

Maybe it is design theft, maybe it isnt. Regardless, the design is beautiful on both cues, calling it ugly is just a little too much to me. We bought it because we liked it. Of course wehavnt seen the Bill McDanial cue in person either.

 

[skins]

Maybe it is design theft, maybe it isnt. Regardless, the design is beautiful on both cues, calling it ugly is just a little too much to me. We bought it because we liked it. Of course wehavnt seen the Bill McDanial cue in person either.

it's obvious that it's theft and if you can't tell the difference between this ugly rendition and Bill's work then i guess it's found the right buyer.

 

[quitecoolguy]

okay...okay...skins....man...I will conced to your detective work...being an ex law enforcement officer myself..i was impressed that you were able to identify a cue that had the design first...which brings up some interesting point in its self..but to call the cue ugly is a personal opinion that should be left out..and then to add injury to insult you kinda insulted the buyer of the philipino cue by saying "well i guess it found the right buyer" that wasnt really nesessary...perhaps you know the cuemaker who came up with the design first and have a pasioniate interest to preserve the original design.. however i have seen where customers sometimes love the cue design of a cue they have seen and find someone to make a copy...i know it kinda removes the "custom" concept but people will find a way to get what they like...i have seen so many Black Boars and Tim Scrugs that i would love to have a copy of ... and it not that i may just want a Tim Scruggs but i want a copy of cue that i saw some one else have..but i doubt mr Scruggs would make two of the same cue..I just think calling it ugly was a bit much...heck truth be known the cues in you avatar are ugly to me ...to much inlay work going on to appreciate the cue" now i would have never, and I mean never said that unless i was trying to prove a point..i just think beauty of a cue is an opinion and every one has diffrent taste...not trying to piss anyone off ...but just my two cents... and please excuse the spelling ....hangover from last night at the pool room..some one introduced me to the drink Irish car bomb last night...dear god...i think my blood is either irish green or a light brown Bailiey's color

 

[Chris]

it's obvious that it's theft and if you can't tell the difference between this ugly rendition and Bill's work then i guess it's found the right buyer.

Some of the differences I noticed were that this cue has more grain showing in the pics than does the one on Mr. McDaniel's website. This cue also has sharp pointed inlays, while the horseshoe cue appears to have rounded inlays.

It's tough to find any cue that hits well and comes with two shafts and joint protectors for $250. Why knock someone else's good fortune?

 

[BulletZoo]

I have read your remarks about the "Custom Cue" that i have purchased, and feel that you are being unfair to the maker of this cue, as well as to myself. You know what they say about Buyer Beware, maybe YOU should Beware about the remarks that you make. (They may come back to BITE YOU) But thanks for your opinion any way. (But opinions are like BUTT HOLES, everybody has one) Catch my drift.

 

[Icon of Sin]

okay...okay...skins....man...I will conced to your detective work...being an ex law enforcement officer myself..i was impressed that you were able to identify a cue that had the design first...which brings up some interesting point in its self..but to call the cue ugly is a personal opinion that should be left out..and then to add injury to insult you kinda insulted the buyer of the philipino cue by saying "well i guess it found the right buyer" that wasnt really nesessary...perhaps you know the cuemaker who came up with the design first and have a pasioniate interest to preserve the original design.. however i have seen where customers sometimes love the cue design of a cue they have seen and find someone to make a copy...i know it kinda removes the "custom" concept but people will find a way to get what they like...i have seen so many Black Boars and Tim Scrugs that i would love to have a copy of ... and it not that i may just want a Tim Scruggs but i want a copy of cue that i saw some one else have..but i doubt mr Scruggs would make two of the same cue..I just think calling it ugly was a bit much...heck truth be known the cues in you avatar are ugly to me ...to much inlay work going on to appreciate the cue" now i would have never, and I mean never said that unless i was trying to prove a point..i just think beauty of a cue is an opinion and every one has diffrent taste...not trying to piss anyone off ...but just my two cents... and please excuse the spelling ....hangover from last night at the pool room..some one introduced me to the drink Irish car bomb last night...dear god...i think my blood is either irish green or a light brown Bailiey's color

Well said!

I have read your remarks about the "Custom Cue" that i have purchased, and feel that you are being unfair to the maker of this cue, as well as to myself. You know what they say about Buyer Beware, maybe YOU should Beware about the remarks that you make. (They may come back to BITE YOU) But thanks for your opinion any way. (But opinions are like BUTT HOLES, everybody has one) Catch my drift.

Even better said Dad.

I found out long ago that calling somthing ugly that someone else just purchased (especially in the 100 plus range) is normally a bad idea. You could really piss off the buyer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this beholder and his son (myself) find the cue gorgeous.

Another thing, we had no idea it was similar to Bill McDaniels work when we bought it. We never see any of his cues around are way anyway, most of the customs we see out here are Frey's, Scruggs', Lambros', Sly's and other makers on the east coast. (except for this Bill McDaniel of course)

The pool community out this way is mainly just working class league players, cue collecting is far from there minds, they just want to bang balls with there viking they think is fantastic. One the other hand you run into people like myself who have seen the work from cuemakers across the nation thanks to this message board.

But go ahead skins, continue on with your tirade, it amuses me. You definately not gonna rain on my parade or my fathers, we found a gem at that price regardless of whose work it looks like.

Gracie... you father makes beautiful work, let me know if you have anything similar to it, Id be interested.

 

[skins]

okay...okay...skins....man...I will conced to your detective work...being an ex law enforcement officer myself..i was impressed that you were able to identify a cue that had the design first...which brings up some interesting point in its self..but to call the cue ugly is a personal opinion that should be left out..and then to add injury to insult you kinda insulted the buyer of the philipino cue by saying "well i guess it found the right buyer" that wasnt really nesessary...perhaps you know the cuemaker who came up with the design first and have a pasioniate interest to preserve the original design.. however i have seen where customers sometimes love the cue design of a cue they have seen and find someone to make a copy...i know it kinda removes the "custom" concept but people will find a way to get what they like...i have seen so many Black Boars and Tim Scrugs that i would love to have a copy of ... and it not that i may just want a Tim Scruggs but i want a copy of cue that i saw some one else have..but i doubt mr Scruggs would make two of the same cue..I just think calling it ugly was a bit much...heck truth be known the cues in you avatar are ugly to me ...to much inlay work going on to appreciate the cue" now i would have never, and I mean never said that unless i was trying to prove a point..i just think beauty of a cue is an opinion and every one has diffrent taste...not trying to piss anyone off ...but just my two cents... and please excuse the spelling ....hangover from last night at the pool room..some one introduced me to the drink Irish car bomb last night...dear god...i think my blood is either irish green or a light brown Bailiey's color

you can express your opinion all you want because thats what an open forum is but the facts are still the facts and you don't have them. do a search on this site for cue design theft and see what you come with. this maker stole from another and it should not be condoned by anyone buyer or seller. his feeble attempt at the design was terrible and as a designer i can see that as well as most other high end collectors will also. also you can insult my designs all you want that just shows you don't have an eye for design. i've proven myself by being asked to work with some of the greatest cue makers alive what have you done? as far as asking another cue maker to copy another cue makers design you will find that most truly respectable makers won't do it period. i'm sick and tired of lazy cue makers making a living off of our backs and the buyers who don't make themselves educated enough to know better. you know it's kind of like Rolex going after all the makers and buyers of fake Rolex watches. my point is if you can't afford a Picasso then buy a Smith. don't keep feeding these thieves with money made from the work of others who have spent many hours to deserve it. what i meant by the cue finding the right buyer is one who obviously is not involved enough in the cue world to know any better. i'm not saying that you have to know who designed every cue but there are obvious ones out there and allot more can be determined just by being more involved on this site. ya know i never did give my opinion on the cue itself so here it goes... the design has potential if cleaned up a little, the forearm is too short, the sleeve with butt cap too long and the bumper is too big and gaudy. how's that?

 

[skins]

I have read your remarks about the "Custom Cue" that i have purchased, and feel that you are being unfair to the maker of this cue, as well as to myself. You know what they say about Buyer Beware, maybe YOU should Beware about the remarks that you make. (They may come back to BITE YOU) But thanks for your opinion any way. (But opinions are like BUTT HOLES, everybody has one) Catch my drift.

are you threatening me? explain how it could come back to "bite me". i can guarantee i don't work with or am i involved in any aspect of any cue maker you have influence over and the ones i do work with will back me 100%. as for any other way you may mean i would "bite" your tongue and don't dig a hole for yourself. as for being unfair the only ways this could be is if the design was his to begin with or to have permission from the designer. is it? did he? if not then he stole the design for his profit. if it is his then that's fine too. i have stated hypotheticals about the maker and buyer and that's all read back through my posts. if i were to find out that it was this other guys work i would say the same thing about Bill and praise this other maker. my point is design theft hurts many cue makers and designers trying to make a living and i would be included on the list.

 

[jayman]

it's obvious that it's theft and if you can't tell the difference between this ugly rendition and Bill's work then i guess it's found the right buyer.

He is right! the design was not his own, Thus STOLEN from the designer who did it from artistic originality. He should have used decals though, lol.
that way it would only be flatttery......Cmon folks, be original, Dont be afraid.
Bill M. is Awsome! copies are not impresive, At least until he has been dead and gone for a decade, then call it a tribute cue! thats ok, there are a lot of "rambow cues" being made. after all.

-jay-

 

[Icon of Sin]

are you threatening me? explain how it could come back to "bite me". i can guarantee i don't work with or am i involved in any aspect of any cue maker you have influence over and the ones i do work with will back me 100%. as for any other way you may mean i would "bite" your tongue and don't dig a hole for yourself. as for being unfair the only ways this could be is if the design was his to begin with or to have permission from the designer. is it? did he? if not then he stole the design for his profit. if it is his then that's fine too. i have stated hypotheticals about the maker and buyer and that's all read back through my posts. if i were to find out that it was this other guys work i would say the same thing about Bill and praise this other maker. my point is design theft hurts many cue makers and designers trying to make a living and i would be included on the list.

Your point would have been accepted a lot better if you didnt throw out insults (opinions on cue being ugly) in the first place. Then this thread wouldnt have to be 2 pages long of pure idiocy. It's the same thing as saying someones wife is a fat and ugly version of your own, or saying that Honda is a ugly version of this Ford. It's all opinionated, but the owner can be easily pissed off, especially if they dropped some cash on it.

I'll agree, that the design is the same design as the McDaniel Cue. I will not agree that the Gracie cue is ugly, as it is not in my eyes. Like said before, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and we are the beholder. It is a great looking cue, my picture taking skills are horrible though, but other then that the cue is stunning in person to me.

As of right now Skins, I am extending my virtual hand and saying we will have to agree to disagree, hows that sound. I had enough of the name calling back and forth. Im speaking for my father here as well. This forum is a small place and Im not looking for enemies here.

 

[skins]

As of right now Skins, I am extending my virtual hand and saying we will have to agree to disagree, hows that sound. I had enough of the name calling back and forth. Im speaking for my father here as well. This forum is a small place and Im not looking for enemies here.

listen my intention is NEVER post to offend anyone. i have been involved in the building of cues for 18 years and all i am saying is i wish cue makers would spend the time on their own work and not take others that's all. i will always have my opinion and i have earned the right to call it an educated one but it was not intended to personally attack you or your father and if that was the way you took it then your right the best thing would be to drop it. i apologize for my credulity towards cue makers and also my insensitive remarks pointed at your new investment but i also will take with me a sense of solace that what i've said will sink in with some and make them think when buying cues. once again i really wan't no ill will and take back all comments personally offensive.