New Rule Vent

mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just came across this new ruling in our monthly "Friendship Tournament". This is a D/E tournament where the lodges (Moose, Elks, Eagles, and VFW) in the town play for a travelling trophy. There are 2-man teams with two teams from each lodge. They pretty much use bar rules, No BIH, call only the pocket where as long as one of your balls go then the shot is good, double hits are allowed as long as you can't see it clearly, must play out of the kitchen. Anyway the tournament director pretty much makes up the rules as it goes. Even though it is frustrating, it can be fun. The bragging rights go a long way and when you bring the trophy back to the lodge you get a rousing ovation. Sharking out the wazoo..... Heaven forbid if you play a good safety because you must be cheating, of course without BIH it doesn't make any difference.

Anyway every month they seem to pull a new ruling out of the hat. The most recent one....

We are in the hotseat and our opponents are breaking... he miscues and misses the rack. I go to break and I get the response he gets another break attempt BECAUSE he missed the rack or a ball didn't move. So I ask what the hell is considered a legal break. Response...at least 4 balls have to hit a rail. I told the TD in the 40 years I've played this is a first. All he would say is he read it somewhere, just doesn't remember where. I guess it's time to ask to see the rules they want to use in writing. The funny thing is this same TD does use BCA rules in a seniors league and obviously doesn't like them. So at least he has heard that there are established/published set of rules. That is where the frustration comes in. You play well and then get screwed. Heaven forbid if you actually lose and move to the loser's side because of some additional restrictions.

When these hacks win it's funny to watch their reactions. It's even more fun to kill some of these guys and watch them get frustrated by actually play a great safety anyway. Of course they will saleout. I must admit I have never deliberately played an illegal shot to get an advantage. After the match we do attempt to educate them on the correct rules though. More and more of them are going that's a great idea/rule. Still trying to get them to implement ESTABLISHED rules, whether APA or BCA. As a minimum BIH would take care of most of the problems, except for this NEW one....
 
I have done some refereeing at the APA nationals. I think your problem starts with "bar room rules" which unwritten rely upon someone to make a judgement or call. I think the TD was correct.

If you have not struck the rack the game has not started and no foul can occur. If your opponent hit the rack and did not send four balls to a rail then it is an illeagal break and same shooter gets a re-rack and breaks again. If your opponent scratched and did not make a legal break then it would be your break assuming you are playing a cue ball foul game.

This interpretation of the rules is from the APA. I am not sure how other rules are written but may be similar.
 
Bigkahuna said:
I have done some refereeing at the APA nationals. I think your problem starts with "bar room rules" which unwritten rely upon someone to make a judgement or call. I think the TD was correct.

If you have not struck the rack the game has not started and no foul can occur. If your opponent hit the rack and did not send four balls to a rail then it is an illeagal break and same shooter gets a re-rack and breaks again. If your opponent scratched and did not make a legal break then it would be your break assuming you are playing a cue ball foul game.

This interpretation of the rules is from the APA. I am not sure how other rules are written but may be similar.

Wow.... I guess I still don't understand the part about if you have not stuck the rack as it not being an illegal break with the OPPONENT getting the opportunity to break. In this case the breaker took a stroke and miscued. This is a legal stroke but still a foul and an illegal break. No different than 4 balls not hitting a rail. As such the incoming player should have the choice of breaking OR accepting the table position.

I used to play APA a LOOOOOOOOONNNNNG time ago and now play BCA rules. I don't remember it being any other way to include BCA or APA.
 
What a difference.....

BCA 8-Ball Break Requirements
1. You begin the break with ball in hand behind the head string.

There is no requirement for the cue ball to contact any particular ball first. You must pocket a ball or cause at least four object balls to contact the cushions or it is an illegal break. If you pocket a ball you continue to shoot; if you do not pocket a ball or you commit a foul, your inning ends. (Remainder deleted)
2. If you intend to break softly you must notify your opponent and allow them the opportunity to call a referee to watch your break.
3. If your break is illegal, your inning ends. Your opponent may:
a. accept the table in position if you did not scratch;
8-BALL
b. accept the table in position with ball in hand behind the head string if you did scratch;
c. re-rack the balls and break;
d. require you to re-rack the balls and break again.
4. If you scratch on a legal break and do not pocket the 8-ball, your inning ends and any other pocketed balls remain pocketed. Your opponent has ball in hand behind the head string.
5. If you foul on a legal break but do not scratch or pocket the 8-ball, your inning ends and any other pocketed balls remain pocketed. Your opponent may:
a. accept the table in position or;
b. take ball in hand behind the head string.
6. In all cases on the break, jumped balls other than the 8-ball are not returned to the table except in the case of a re-rack.

APA 8-Ball Breaking
3. Breaking - To be a legal break, players must break
from behind the head string, the head ball or second
ball must be struck first and at least four object balls
must be driven to the rails or a ball must be pocketed.
The cue ball may not be shot into a rail before the rack.
If the break does not qualify as legal, the balls are
reracked and rebroken by the same player. If the break
does not qualify as legal and results in a scratch, the
balls are reracked and broken by the opposite player.
Page 1
THE RACK MUST BE STRUCK BEFORE A FOUL CAN
OCCUR. Breaking safe or soft is not allowed. The League
Operator may make judgments and issue penalties to
teams and players who are not breaking hard. Breaking
just hard enough to comply with this rule is not a
guarantee against penalties. Remember, break as hard as
you can with control
 
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