nine ball changes have changed the game

[The_JV]

Only template racks changed the game.

Clean cloth and polished balls existed since I started playing pool decades and decades ago.

You've probably adapted to the racks. I stopped playing right when it was gaining its popularity years ago. I started playing fulltime again. It has changed how tournaments are ran and how games are played now.

I've been away and back so I didn't gradually adopted it. It was quite a culture shock. Everyone makes the break now and both players lose a turn if more than 2 or more balls are made.

Of course in theory a polished set of balls and clean/newish cloth should have been the norm throughout the years, but it definitely hasn't been during my time. I find in this day in age, rooms that want credibility maintain a higher standard then what you'd typically find 25-30yrs ago. This is most likely a regional thing.

Templates are 100% an equalizer in terms of the break. Only those who have/had a monstrous one which gave them an advantage are upset about templates. I've never been a huge breaker, but templates have shown me that was a matter of crappy racks more so then my arm. I'm probably in the minority that think the game shouldn't be about breaking.

I'm assuming the comment about both players losing a turn is a joke that has flown over my head....? I don't understand what you're getting at.

 

[smiling_Hans]

I'm assuming the comment about both players losing a turn is a joke that has flown over my head....? I don't understand what you're getting at.

Losing a turn means that since there are less balls, the chances of running out is high and you will lose an otherwise 'turn' at the table.

You're trying to run out every turn and keep your opponent off the table but since there are less balls and less clutter, the chances of him running out is high. It also gets higher with the next shooter and the next shooter...etc...etc.....

I think people call them innings now. So losing a half inning is what I mean.

 

[TrxR]

that's two special cues.

and a safety that was good but took a special cue and skill to defeat it

push out was on all shots if desired not just the break

Push out on all shots sounds like a stupid idea. This needlessly slows the game down. I'm glad that disappeared. Push outs to me just means you can't play or get out of a good safety.

 

[Fore Rail]

I love certain movies & hard rock songs from the 80’s.

Did okay with the persimmon steel shafted woods I used back then as well.

Having said, I’m not completely stuck there to this day.

 

[AtLarge]

... if something is made off a break you only have 6-7 balls to run out. ...

... 9b went from 9b to quick 6 or 7 ball game.

You're exaggerating quite a bit here (maybe you just were not aware of the actual situation). For the 195 games I tracked in the single-elimination portion of the recent UK Open, 6 or 7 balls were left on the table after the break (i.e., 2 or 3 were pocketed) just 21% of the time. That includes dry and fouled breaks. If we look just at successful breaks, 6 or 7 balls were left on the table after the break 28% of the time (versus 72% for 8 balls on the table).

The percentage of breaks leaving fewer than 8 balls on the table does go up somewhat on easier-breaking tables.

 

[smiling_Hans]

You're exaggerating quite a bit here. For the 195 games I tracked in the single-elimination portion of the recent UK Open, 6 or 7 balls were left on the table after the break (i.e., 2 or 3 were pocketed) just 21% of the time. That includes dry and fouled breaks. If we look just at successful breaks, 6 or 7 balls were left on the table after the break 28% of the time (versus 72% for 8 balls on the table).

Ok it becomes a 8 ball(s) game then.

How many percent broke dry vs. making at least a ball? Are the pros 'making something' on a 80% clip?

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Push out on all shots sounds like a stupid idea. This needlessly slows the game down. I'm glad that disappeared. Push outs to me just means you can't play or get out of a good safety.

This is what a good push out player wants their opponents to think.

 

[AtLarge]

Ok it becomes a 8 ball(s) game then.

How many percent broke dry vs. making at least a ball? Are the pros 'making something' on a 80% clip?

For those same 195 UK Open games mentioned above, it was 14 fouls on the break (including 2 that were also dry), 43 dry (with no foul) and 138 successful. So 7% fouled, 22% dry with no foul, and 71% successful. That sort of info is in each of my stats threads. But for a quick tabulation of successful-break rates from many dozens of my past stats threads, you can go to Dr. Dave's site here (although I see he is behind a bit at present): https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/break/stats/

 

[soyale]

“Changes to game result in changes to game.”

 

[Mensabum]

The gimmick rack system is so everyone gets the same rack. No more rack mechanics and complaints about the rack are a good thing imo.

Old saws knew 100 ways to rack balls so that certain set ups would remain after the break. I think Dave has vids on controlled racking or whatever it's called now. Back then, those secrets cost ya. Lol.

 

[maha]

just to compare you would go broke back then laying two to one you would make a ball on the break and shoot again.
and could get 5 to one on calling a ball on it.
and that was with the big pockets.

now just the opposite.

 

[VarmintKong]

This is what a good push out player wants their opponents to think.

I have never played or seen push out on any shot played. Always heard about how 9 ball was played before Texas Express, but never had any glimpse into the strategy of it.

Must be so much more than the push pass option after the break. How does it affect the approach to running balls in unfavorable layouts, going for risky break-outs, do you always tie up a ball when playing safe?

I’d freaking love to get schooled by an old timer on this lost art. Any AccuStats vids or sum-such anyone could recommend with this style?

 

[David in FL]

that's two special cues.

and a safety that was good but took a special cue and skill to defeat it

push out was on all shots if desired not just the break

Or maybe it just wasn't a "good" safety…

Just sayin'...

 

[philly]

A push out on all shots is the dumbest thing I ever heard for 9 ball.
Games evolve. Look how many clubs golfers have. You think it takes no practice to be as good with them as pros are? You think you pick one up and you’re making accurate jumps and playing safe off them? That takes a lot of work. The cue isn’t magic.
You sound like the old man yelling get off my lawn.

The game changes because we want it to change, make it change.
Rotation is a different animal altogether from other pool games.
Sure rotation games have changed, evolved because we changed it.
14.1 hasn't changed, same game same rules forever.
One pocket has not changed, same game same rules forever.
Both meant to be played on big tables.
The only change in 14.1 and one pocket is the size of the table.
Went from a 10 footer to a 9 footer.
Really can't play those games on a 7 footer.
You can play rotation on any size table and we do.

Don't get me wrong, I love rotation games but we changed the game of rotation.
I remember the two push out rule.
Cloth was was different.
It was felt, and you better know how to make a spot shot consistently too
because the money ball or the ball before the money ball was spotted and you played from the kitchen.

 

[skogstokig]

I have never played or seen push out on any shot played. Always heard about how 9 ball was played before Texas Express, but never had any glimpse into the strategy of it.

Must be so much more than the push pass option after the break. How does it affect the approach to running balls in unfavorable layouts, going for risky break-outs, do you always tie up a ball when playing safe?

I’d freaking love to get schooled by an old timer on this lost art. Any AccuStats vids or sum-such anyone could recommend with this style?

there have been a couple of matches on youtube with roll out 9-ball, one including earl. no idea how to find them if they're still there, they were 80's matches and iirc not accustats

 

[Cue Stick]

the game is different to say the least.!!
nine ball was a simple game to play and understand, and used to determine the best player.

we now rack our own with a gimmick style rack that makes it easy to make certain balls on the break. no more random luck to it.

we have jump cues to defeat good safeties.

special cues or add-ons to them for special shots.

polished balls and fast cloth.

new cloth for tournaments which makes balls go in easily.

no more push-out which eliminates tough angle shots and hard banks.

so smaller pockets and deeper shelves come about to rectify it, which changed the game.

I do wish we could see some of the world's best playing two-shot shoot out...highest level of skill.

 

[Georgiacue]

I'm trying to make sense of all of this. A lot of pool halls are changing over to the tighter pocket diamonds. I'm ok with that we need a few challenging tables, but a lot of players, me included struggle running out with the bigger pocketed tables consistently and that goes for some of the best league players in a major city where I play, but we are switching to smaller pockets?

I would say 90% of the apa population is what maybe a 3 in apa? (Just a guess). I know we all want to play like pros and i'm far from it, but smaller pockets makes a already hard game much harder. 1/4 inch difference in pocket size is huge. I know smaller pockets is supposed to make you better but there's a lot more to pool than pocket size.

The new cloth makes it easier. but what happens when the cloth wears down in a pool room. Draw becomes more and more difficult, balls don't pocket as easy , can't shoot the pocket etc etc. I'm worried about the precedent we are setting with the new guys coming into the sport. 9 ball then has as many innings as one pocket (sarcasm).

People get confidence by pocketing balls, occasional run out. Some minor success in league play that motivates them and causes them to invest more into the game (purchase more cues, shafts, chalk, tables, cases etc). I think these smaller pockets in some of the pool halls are prolly gonna have a longer term effect on the sport. This coming from someone that is prolly gonna order a 9ft diamond himself because you really have no choice if you want to shoot league play.

 

[maha]

well said. and yes you are right .

 

[maha]

no shoot out isnt such a big deal with the top pros. it was done and made to speed up the game by the jancos in johnson city.

but smaller tournaments and people in the pool room all follow what the big boys do. that is the same in all sports.
in the pool rooms of the world no shoot out called texas express or ball in hand has changed nine ball so it isn't played often for money anymore.

and the weak players lose interest when having to get snookered and give up ball in hand. makes it less fun.

 

[Nick B]

I'm trying to make sense of all of this. A lot of pool halls are changing over to the tighter pocket diamonds. I'm ok with that we need a few challenging tables, but a lot of players, me included struggle running out with the bigger pocketed tables consistently and that goes for some of the best league players in a major city where I play, but we are switching to smaller pockets?

I would say 90% of the apa population is what maybe a 3 in apa? (Just a guess). I know we all want to play like pros and i'm far from it, but smaller pockets makes a already hard game much harder. 1/4 inch difference in pocket size is huge. I know smaller pockets is supposed to make you better but there's a lot more to pool than pocket size.

The new cloth makes it easier. but what happens when the cloth wears down in a pool room. Draw becomes more and more difficult, balls don't pocket as easy , can't shoot the pocket etc etc. I'm worried about the precedent we are setting with the new guys coming into the sport. 9 ball then has as many innings as one pocket (sarcasm).

People get confidence by pocketing balls, occasional run out. Some minor success in league play that motivates them and causes them to invest more into the game (purchase more cues, shafts, chalk, tables, cases etc). I think these smaller pockets in some of the pool halls are prolly gonna have a longer term effect on the sport. This coming from someone that is prolly gonna order a 9ft diamond himself because you really have no choice if you want to shoot league play.

Problem number 1...you are using APA as your benchmark. Tight pockets are fine if they are within the tolerances of well setup flat tables. If the balls roll poorly they can be insufferable.