Non standard thread pitches in cues

[claymont]

What is the reason/history for the use of non standard pitches (in relation to SAE NC/NF thread sizing) in cue joints. Just curious. My original cue, which is 30+ years old, had a 5/16-18 thread. I never gave it much thought until I started looking for another cue and noticed the different thread types while shopping around.

Thanks

 

[Canadian cue]

joint pin thread pitches

Do not know for certain but common sense and logic tell me there would be several reasons for why it is done this way.
The main reason I think ,(in a cue without a brass insert in the shaft) the standard pitches are not coarse enough for wood.In a soft material you always want to use as coarse of a thread as possible this makes it harder to strip ,gives more meat to the thread.
The second reason that comes to mind is it makes putting a cue together quicker.
I also think some cue makers take this one step further and try to make there thread original by using some "whacky" pitch ,all avoid using examples to avoid putting any cue maker in the spot light.It is my belief they do this so as others have a harder time reproducing there threads,thus ensuring return customers.
Lastly ,just like any other art form cue makers are always looking for something to put there signature on .

 

[Michael Webb]

To Canadian Cue
Great post, all of it is true.

To Joseph cue:
People have been using hand taps for years. If you know the correct drill size and know how to do a straight hole there is no problem. Grinding threads is great but not the only option.

 

[blud]

threads

To Canadian Cue
Great post, all of it is true.

To Joseph cue:
People have been using hand taps for years. If you know the correct drill size and know how to do a straight hole there is no problem. Grinding threads is great but not the only option.

I think that grinding threads is the best way. However, as Mike said, you can get good results from taping. A tap cuts the threads, and can tear them at any given time.The work piece [shaft or butt], turns and not the tap.

A, threading tool [grinding with a router], machines the threads very smoothly, at a high rate of speed. [rpm's].When i grind my threads, I run the cutting tool at 30,000 rpm's, and turn the shaft or butt at about 56 rpm's, setting the lathe thread guide to the pitch needed. For tapping, you need to turn the work piece very fast for a clean threaded hole..
When tapping with a tap, the tap doesn't turn, just the work piece. Impossible for the taped threads to come out as clean as ground threads.

When using the older tap method, you have to turn the work piece fast and just at the right time, release the tap from the chuck in the tail stock quill. This is hard on the chucks jaws. This will in time, wears the chuck jaws out, from all the friction the tap causes from spinning in it. Best way is to grind them at a high speed. Works for me....
blud

 

[iusedtoberich]

Joseph, I might be getting personal hear, but a majority of your threads have a common theme of "anything other than thread grinding = poor cuemaking". You seem to use that as your biggest measure of quality of a cuemaker.

While I agree that milling/grinding the threads is the most accurate, tapping can also work well as others have stated. Ask any machinist and he will tell you that a hole will follow a hole. So if you drill then bore a hole for excellent concentricity, there is a high probability that the tap will "follow" the concentric hole to form a concentric thread. If you start with a crooked hole, the next drill will also be crooked, and so will the thread when you tap it.

For that matter, I think a hole bored with a TIR of .001 and then tapped will result in a more concentric thread than a hole just drilled without boring to final size and then grinding the thread.

I have personally never ground a thread, but I'm making the tooling for it now. I'm still new to cuemaking, but I have been doing cue repair for 5 or so years now and anytime I thread ivory or other ferrule materials, I always come out with crisp threads (wood is a different story of course). I use as spiral flute tap for the ferrules that does a much better job ejecting the chips in a blind hole. I also get nice threads when using a standard gun tap.

Please don't take my post as an attack, no offense is meant. I enjoy this forum and the information exchanged between everyone. My main point here is thread grinding should not "make or break" a cuemaker.

 

[Joseph Cues]

IU, no offense taken.
Tapping metal and tapping wood is different.
But, I won't expound on it any more.
My lips will be sealed on this subject.
But, I will never use a tap and die to create threads if I can grind them.
I don't think you can convince Blud to tap his holes either if he can grind them.
But, I will cease to react to this matter from now on.
Thanks.

 

[Jon]

IU, no offense taken.
Tapping metal and tapping wood is different.
But, I won't expound on it any more.
My lips will be sealed on this subject.
But, I will never use a tap and die to create threads if I can grind them.
I don't think you can convince Blud to tap his holes either if he can grind them.
But, I will cease to react to this matter from now on.
Thanks.

I think somebody hurt someones feelings...

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Joseph Cues]

I think somebody hurt someones feelings...

Thanks,

Jon

Ahahahahahaah!!!!!!
Hey, did you make me those ACME dies and taps??????
Btw, I made blanks this week at Z's.
Bocote, zircote, bubinga and rosewood. You gotta see the pics. You'll turn green in envy.
I'll take some pics and send them to ya.
Thanks for the heads up on those drills. Got 4 more.
I'm sending one of my buddies here two of them.

 

[Jon]

Ahahahahahaah!!!!!!
Hey, did you make me those ACME dies and taps??????
Btw, I made blanks this week at Z's.
Bocote, zircote, bubinga and rosewood. You gotta see the pics. You'll turn green in envy.
I'll take some pics and send them to ya.
Thanks for the heads up on those drills. Got 4 more.
I'm sending one of my buddies here two of them.

Hey, you can get ACME taps; I think you can get a 3/8-10 standard (acme) thread lol. I was looking at a Starrett Book, and I’ve been thinking, imo the southwest pin is an acme thread, whereas they used the "wrong" threading bit (wider than needed) to create the thread, I’m probably the last to realize that, but what the hell, I can be a little slow at times. Or they could have just made a 3/8-11 thread with a flat bottom, and turned the tops of the threads down to make you "THINK" they are an acme... you never know.

You are very welcome for the heads up on the drills, you owe me one lol. Maybe you can find a deal on a 1/4" solid carbide Brad Point drill (I would grind the "point" off) it would be a little easier to end up with a flat bottom hole that way. My smallest boring bar is a little over .250".

My damn money tree needs to bloom sometime soon; I’m tired of waiting around for the extra money to get more "stuff"...

Joey, I’ll send some pics of that prather blank I got (just to see what was going on I guess) you can see where one of the point woods is not quite 90 degrees, but the points were not that bad, as far as being out of line, but I will buy no more, I’d rather make my own, and then re-cut them, and re-cut them, and re-cut them, and re-cut them...

Thanks,

Jon <- Not sure if he likes veneers yet, have to try them out, if I like them, I’ll get blud's veneer thingy.

 

[Joseph Cues]

Have fun JT buddy.
I've seen those blanks. Epoxy oozed out between the veneers on the one I saw.
I wun't very impressed. I can only imagine how they'd hit.
Good luck in your milling plans.

 

[Cletus]

I'm just wondering here. You guys seem to be referring to using this thread mill to cut threads within the shafts. What I want to know is do you use this same thing to make threaded tenons like for a ferrule or do you use a different device? I don't mean different size thread mill but some other device. Thanks.

 

[blud]

tap

While I agree that milling/grinding the threads is the most accurate, tapping can also work well as others have stated.


Rich, You said it correct, Milling / grinding threads is the most accurate.

Taping with a tap in wood, is much differant than metal. I have done both for years. In wood, the tap can "run off", or get out of alignment with the hole.

Sometimes when taping in wood, your spinning the work piece [cue/part] at a high speed which is required, and you start to tap and turn your machine off, so it can wind down in rpm speep, and time it just right to release the tap in the chucks jaws. Doing this over and again, you have slipage within the jaws of the chuck in your tail stock. This happens many times, and now you have a tap that will run off angle, because the jaws are not true..
A tap-a matic, will not work. Using a tap-a-matic, it holds the tap firm within it's jaws, or collet, but it's got some slop, or sag.. The problem, is that it sags a little and your not lined up straight to the hole, and your depending on the wooden hole to keep all in alignment. It's will reverse it's self when pulling back on it.

The next time you tap your already out of alignment with your hole, that has been drilled or bored.



Carbide threading tools,
Tooling for grinding holes in wood. I have mine built by a fellow in CA. They are made of solid carbide. They look like a clover leaf, with 4 flutes and a reduced shank and expanding up to a 1/4" shank for the router collet.

His information,
Ed Pimintel
MP Tool
7812 Clybourn Ave.
Sun Valley, Ca 91352

818-771-0466

Hope this helps
blud

 

[iusedtoberich]

Thanks for the source Blud. I have some solid carbide bars I was thinking of brazing a cutter to the end of to make a thread mill. But it might be worthwhile having someone else do it, especially considering I'm not working in a toolroom anymore with a surface grinder and diamond wheels.

Cletus, A thread mill also works the best for external threads.

 

[Joseph Cues]

Blud, do you "prep" some crumbley woods before you thread them?
If this is a trade secret, you can just say pass.
Thanks.

 

[blud]

woods

Blud, do you "prep" some crumbley woods before you thread them?
If this is a trade secret, you can just say pass.
Thanks.

No Joseph, i do not prep woods. If they will crumble, they don't belong in one of my cues. Won't go there.
With the proper sise hole, correct speed,[RPM"S], you should not have trouble.
Not to be a smart ass, but if it crumbles as you say, WHY USE IT? duh!
BLUD

 

[Joseph Cues]

Thanks Blud.
Some woods just do not thread as cleanly as cocobolo. I didn't mean they collapse or totally crumble but some just break a little in n between threads.
I cannot even imagine how they'd look if they were tapped.

 

[Michael Webb]

I can tell you have a real woody for hand taps. I am not busting but what is it about them that bothers you. Is it that you don't know how to use them. I have to ask because you always dwell on it. Tapping wood is just like any thing else, it's a discipline that there is a right and wrong way to do it.