numerous questions on how to improve my game (long)

[PetToilet]

So i'm trying to get better at pool, and need to work on a couple things...

first things first: stroke.

I can do the ol' dot to dot pretty decently with light~medium strokes with top and even bottom english. However, adding more power reveals the imperfections in my follow through. I usually end up putting left spin on the ball because my elbow pops out. I dont know if i started doing this because i heard so many bad things about elbow drop (i don't at all - instead it goes away from my body).

Rotating my body and angle at which my arm hangs help but i don't naturally do it usually. Naturally it likes to stay towards my body - or maybe my upper arm just likes to come out at more of an angle. Also, i use a short bridge and duck down as many have recommended, and possibly as a result, enducing elbow drop as a follow through which i've seen some good people do, feels weird. As a result, a full fast stroke results in elbow coming out. Is the only way to fix this rotating my body even more? or should i try to make my upper arm come out closer to my body? Any tips?

Also with strong strokes, the cue jumps out of my open bridge. Is this normal? or do i need to concentrate more on follow through?

Another stroke I'm having problems with is the over a ball shot. on close to rail shots i do closed bridge when i need backspin and it works fine - but thats because i have the ledge. Over a ball, my hand goes down much more and I can't get up as high with a closed bridge. How do you guys keep your stroke straight with open bridge very raised shots? how do you position your arm and hold the cue?

Now on to non stroke questions...

Spin-Induced-Throw: Is this positively or negatively related to power? I thought originally more power = more SIT (like CIT), but it seems to appear the opposite. Or maybe I am mistaking the throw for squirt or lack there of. I try to keep my bridge length at the pivot point when i add spin - then compensate.

Collision-Induced-Throw: Does anyone do a separate calculation for this? or just on high angle, medium~high power shots?

And lastly, those of us calculated shot players, how do you go about each shot?

This is what I do:

-Figure out normal angle to hit bal
-Figure out set for next ball and what english/power to use
(Should I possibly compensate for CIT here?)
-Get down behind cue ball and select spot to hit on cue ball (using BHE)
-If left/right english is used, compensate for SIT depending on how much spin, power, and distance from OB (should this done before applying BHE? or does it matter)
-practices strokes and shoot.
-follow through of course

Thanks,
Johnny

 

[enzo]

this is such a great post because i feel everybody (who doesnt play very well) needs to work on many of the things you outlined.

first off (and im very qualified to say this if wondering), EVERYONE (even efren) has weird hitches and or imperfections in their stroke. in other words, if you put a laser beam on the end of the best players in the worlds cues, there will be some form of lateral (sideways) motion at some point. all these players have accounted for this one way or another. i think the first thing you have to do is decide what type of player you want to be. for instance, bustamante aims his cuetip way offcenter when he hits centerball, he does this using feel and intuition... it just feels right to him. the way you described your situation, you would need to start aiming to the right of center for center ball, your feel will start telling you how far for certain strokes.

alternatively, you can play like efren or buddy. they aim their cues right exactly where they hit. for this method your stroke needs to get back to its starting point right?... or where you were aiming. since we know (as i stated) all strokes deviate laterally to some degree, how do we get back to that desired position? one thing i recommend is to tinker with your bridge length. i know this is counterintuitive (and people will say im wrong but im not), but lengthening your bridge can actually help cueball hit accuracy. think about it, if your cue tip is swinging to the left, your natural feel is going to try to counteract this after years of practice. if your bridge is a little longer you will get a little more length (or time if you see it that way) to get to the desired starting point. anyway, thats one thing to try. as a sidenote, i have actually thought that players with longer stokes (eg efren) have larger lateral motions, and their long bridge enables them to make up for this, but its not like i have proof or anything, just a thought.

there are other methods that i myself used when developing my game, but they are hard to explain, i can try if youd like. i would just concentrate on hitting hard, soft and medium speeds until you see NOTHING (no sidespin) on the cueball upon impact. this is one of the best ways to develop a really accurate stoke.

i only had time for that above, hope it helps. it is what i think you should concentrate on the most. good luck, and nice questions.... they really show you have been thinking about the road to improvement properly in my opinion.

So i'm trying to get better at pool, and need to work on a couple things...

first things first: stroke.

I can do the ol' dot to dot pretty decently with light~medium strokes with top and even bottom english. However, adding more power reveals the imperfections in my follow through. I usually end up putting left spin on the ball because my elbow pops out. I dont know if i started doing this because i heard so many bad things about elbow drop (i don't at all - instead it goes away from my body).

Rotating my body and angle at which my arm hangs help but i don't naturally do it usually. Naturally it likes to stay towards my body - or maybe my upper arm just likes to come out at more of an angle. Also, i use a short bridge and duck down as many have recommended, and possibly as a result, enducing elbow drop as a follow through which i've seen some good people do, feels weird. As a result, a full fast stroke results in elbow coming out. Is the only way to fix this rotating my body even more? or should i try to make my upper arm come out closer to my body? Any tips?

Also with strong strokes, the cue jumps out of my open bridge. Is this normal? or do i need to concentrate more on follow through?

Another stroke I'm having problems with is the over a ball shot. on close to rail shots i do closed bridge when i need backspin and it works fine - but thats because i have the ledge. Over a ball, my hand goes down much more and I can't get up as high with a closed bridge. How do you guys keep your stroke straight with open bridge very raised shots? how do you position your arm and hold the cue?

Now on to non stroke questions...

Spin-Induced-Throw: Is this positively or negatively related to power? I thought originally more power = more SIT (like CIT), but it seems to appear the opposite. Or maybe I am mistaking the throw for squirt or lack there of. I try to keep my bridge length at the pivot point when i add spin - then compensate.

Collision-Induced-Throw: Does anyone do a separate calculation for this? or just on high angle, medium~high power shots?

And lastly, those of us calculated shot players, how do you go about each shot?

This is what I do:

-Figure out normal angle to hit bal
-Figure out set for next ball and what english/power to use
(Should I possibly compensate for CIT here?)
-Get down behind cue ball and select spot to hit on cue ball (using BHE)
-If left/right english is used, compensate for SIT depending on how much spin, power, and distance from OB (should this done before applying BHE? or does it matter)
-practices strokes and shoot.
-follow through of course

Thanks,
Johnny

 

[RBLilly]

pool school

Find an instructor and your worries will be gone as long as you listen and try to improve.

Try this

www.poolschool.info

 

[pooltchr]

The cue jumping out of your bridge hand indicates a couple of things. You are probably dropping your elbow and tightening up your grip. This is a very typical problem when shooting higher speed shots.

The sideways motion may be the result of improper alignment.

I would agree with the other poster. Get a qualified instructor to help you work on the fundamentals. Until you address those issues, nothing else matters.
Steve

 

[Jimbojim]

nice thread indeed!

 

[PetToilet]

this is such a great post because i feel everybody (who doesnt play very well) needs to work on many of the things you outlined.

thanks! i wrote it in one of my boring classes

one thing i recommend is to tinker with your bridge length. i know this is counterintuitive (and people will say im wrong but im not), but lengthening your bridge can actually help cueball hit accuracy. think about it, if your cue tip is swinging to the left, your natural feel is going to try to counteract this after years of practice. if your bridge is a little longer you will get a little more length (or time if you see it that way) to get to the desired starting point. anyway, thats one thing to try. as a sidenote, i have actually thought that players with longer stokes (eg efren) have larger lateral motions, and their long bridge enables them to make up for this, but its not like i have proof or anything, just a thought.

interesting, i remember hearing somewhere that small bridge lengtsh were good - maybe someone said it was just for softer shots though. i see many of the better players here using some really long bridge lengths - i will give it a try. I generally try to stay around 9 in because that is what my cue's pivot point is supposed to be. I heard that softer shots change squirt so actually the pivot point should be further away (vice versa for strong shots) which is even more counter intuitive!

there are other methods that i myself used when developing my game, but they are hard to explain, i can try if youd like. i would just concentrate on hitting hard, soft and medium speeds until you see NOTHING (no sidespin) on the cueball upon impact. this is one of the best ways to develop a really accurate stoke.

i do this all the time inbetween shots and when others are playing and i get weird looks I use a striped ball so its easier to see spin - although i hear they wont spin as much because they are smaller and lighter(heavier?)

i only had time for that above, hope it helps. it is what i think you should concentrate on the most. good luck, and nice questions.... they really show you have been thinking about the road to improvement properly in my opinion.

thanks, i felt like i hit a plateau and thus went back to the fundamentals. I see my peers all with not so smooth strokes now - and then some with really really good ones. now i know who to stay away from!

The cue jumping out of your bridge hand indicates a couple of things. You are probably dropping your elbow and tightening up your grip. This is a very typical problem when shooting higher speed shots.

The sideways motion may be the result of improper alignment.

I'll have to tape myself to check for sure, i've looked back while shooting though. tightening is something that happens naturally so i'll have to work on that!

i have noticed when im practice stroking that sometimes my shoulder moves a bit, but not down dramatically after a stroke like some people i see. i've practiced holding my shoulder and upper arm completely still and it was a bit tough. Then i moved my back hand closer and it's much better.

Also i've worked on my alignment and that is also helping!

 

[wayne]

Also with strong strokes, the cue jumps out of my open bridge. Is this normal? or do i need to concentrate more on follow through?

You should learn to use a closed bridge for strong strokes or power strokes to keep better control. An open bridge is ok for softer strokes.

Another stroke I'm having problems with is the over a ball shot. on close to rail shots i do closed bridge when i need backspin and it works fine - but thats because i have the ledge. Over a ball, my hand goes down much more and I can't get up as high with a closed bridge. How do you guys keep your stroke straight with open bridge very raised shots? how do you position your arm and hold the cue?

If you can stroke straight you might want to look at the cueball last on over a ball shots. Often, the reason players miss so badly is they are not hitting the center of the cueball on the stroke, a hair off center from over a ball and you get masse on the cueball. This is not a bad idea on rail shots either if you have trouble. Also power shots can be made easier looking at the cueball last, this includes the break if you are getting lousy breaks.

Collision-Induced-Throw: Does anyone do a separate calculation for this? or just on high angle, medium~high power shots?

I don't know about the calculations but if you are cutting a ball with a power stroke you have to hit it a little bit thicker than where you would normally aim with a medium stroke. The cueball is digging in a little deeper on the object ball because of the power.

Wayne

 

[Gerry]

Johnny, you have all the same questions we all had in the beginning. The longer I play this game (30years+), the more I am convinced:

1.there is no one way to play this game correctly. Your personality, hand eye coordination, desire to learn, dedication etc. will determine how fast you become a great player in your own way.

2.there is no perfect bridge, stroke, stance, cue, except the one you yourself feel most comfortable with.

3.find yourself a mentor/teacher, but be careful following anyone who tells you there is only one way to do ANYTHING. I'm all for teachers, but make sure you know your game better than anyone. You need to be able to diagnose a problem with your game yourself when your teacher is not around. Which leads to #4...

4.this game takes repetition, and a hell of a lot of it. If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept a practice log from the beginning. Work on shots, keep notes, and you have it to go back to later.

5. I wish I would have had a copy of "pleasures of small motions" from the start!

good luck, keep learning, Gerry

 

[randyg]

Johnny, you have all the same questions we all had in the beginning. The longer I play this game (30years+), the more I am convinced:

1.there is no one way to play this game correctly. Your personality, hand eye coordination, desire to learn, dedication etc. will determine how fast you become a great player in your own way.

2.there is no perfect bridge, stroke, stance, cue, except the one you yourself feel most comfortable with.

3.find yourself a mentor/teacher, but be careful following anyone who tells you there is only one way to do ANYTHING. I'm all for teachers, but make sure you know your game better than anyone. You need to be able to diagnose a problem with your game yourself when your teacher is not around. Which leads to #4...




4.this game takes repetition, and a hell of a lot of it. If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept a practice log from the beginning. Work on shots, keep notes, and you have it to go back to later.

5. I wish I would have had a copy of "pleasures of small motions" from the start!

good luck, keep learning, Gerry

This is a GREAT POST, thanks Gerry.....SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

Johnny: What City/State do you live in????

 

[PetToilet]

You should learn to use a closed bridge for strong strokes or power strokes to keep better control. An open bridge is ok for softer strokes.

hmm i will try it, currently i only use it for raised up close to rail shots, break shots (i really need to work on breaking too, im trying the on the rail shot but i cant always get it to hit the right spot or with enough power - and im a pretty strong kid) i never really got too comfortable with it otherwise. sometimes i try to use it with follow shots.

If you can stroke straight you might want to look at the cueball last on over a ball shots. Often, the reason players miss so badly is they are not hitting the center of the cueball on the stroke, a hair off center from over a ball and you get masse on the cueball. This is not a bad idea on rail shots either if you have trouble. Also power shots can be made easier looking at the cueball last, this includes the break if you are getting lousy breaks.

i try this and do hit the center, my own guess is my stroke is no where near straight after i raise it up that high.

I don't know about the calculations but if you are cutting a ball with a power stroke you have to hit it a little bit thicker than where you would normally aim with a medium stroke. The cueball is digging in a little deeper on the object ball because of the power.

yeah that would be the compensation i was talking about. thanks for your input.

Johnny, you have all the same questions we all had in the beginning. The longer I play this game (30years+), the more I am convinced:

1.there is no one way to play this game correctly. Your personality, hand eye coordination, desire to learn, dedication etc. will determine how fast you become a great player in your own way.

2.there is no perfect bridge, stroke, stance, cue, except the one you yourself feel most comfortable with.

3.find yourself a mentor/teacher, but be careful following anyone who tells you there is only one way to do ANYTHING. I'm all for teachers, but make sure you know your game better than anyone. You need to be able to diagnose a problem with your game yourself when your teacher is not around. Which leads to #4...

4.this game takes repetition, and a hell of a lot of it. If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept a practice log from the beginning. Work on shots, keep notes, and you have it to go back to later.

5. I wish I would have had a copy of "pleasures of small motions" from the start!

good luck, keep learning, Gerry

i don tknow anyone else that calculates their shots so much, so that is my style i'm an engineer. I agree with you but I would like to try new things and am wondering what everyone else is using so i can try it out for a while. i get really annoyed when other people TELL others how to shoot shots and what to do, it really annoys me. However, asking for suggestions is fine in my book and i'm glad to offer my opinion when asked.

I'm pretty good at adjusting what i'm doing wrong but its always helpful to have another opinion or have someone watch me. I've reached a point where my peers at this school can't do much more to help my game, as i can beat many of them. I got to this point from random pointers and asking for tips and so forth, however.

oh and this is my practice log

Johnny: What City/State do you live in????

I go to school around Baltimore, MD. I live in Laurel.

 

[Gerry]

This is a GREAT POST, thanks Gerry.....SPF=randyg

thanks Randy!....my opinion doesn't go over real well with some teachers/instructors. a few of them want to teach "the only way is my way" theory, and when I discuss it with them at length the conversation invariably goes to them asking me "well, where's your BCA credentials?" when they get frustrated....that's when I know I got em!

seriously, I do want to go into teaching at some point, especially the psychological side of the game. My thinking is if pool is 90% mental, then concentrating on that (after the fundamentals are sound) should be a main goal in becoming a complete player IMHO.

thanx again, Gerry