Okay, Now I Have a Rules Question...

[Barbara]

Hey All,

I pretty much know the answer to this, but I need to be able to explain this to my teammates and our opponents and have something in the rules section for next year's league play.

I play in a bar league that has an "all balls foul" with a "referee" presiding over each game with a shot clock, *BUT*, we have no legal shot rule. (Heck, it would confuse the women too much while they're busy getting drunk.)

Anyway, we also have a rule that comitting a foul while pocketing the 8-ball is loss of game.

So here's the situation:

A Player is shooting on the 8-ball using the bridge. The 8-ball is pocketed and after a delayed response from the Player, she lifts the bridge up to remove it, but drops it on her opponent's ball that was situated between her and the bridge head, causing said ball to move. The caller doesn't call a foul on this because she reckons that since the 8-ball dropped, the game was over.

When would the player's inning be up when there is no legal hit rule?

What's your call here?

Bueller?? Bueller?? Bob Jewett?

Barbara

 

[HitHrdNDraw]

just felt like typing

Inning is up when all balls stop rolling for 3 seconds... I put the three seconds in because if a ball jars up then falls it counts... but i am no rules expert

 

[mnShooter]

Sounds like some funky rules. Normally the shot isn't complete until all balls stop rolling. For example you can't pickup the balls when the cueball is still rolling. Therefore the shot would be a foul if all the balls hadn't stopped rolling. Loss of game.

But with some bar rules who knows, they all have their own rules..

 

[Timberly]

But with some bar rules who knows, they all have their own rules..

AMEN! Bar rules never cease to amaze me and everytime I think I've heard them all, I hear of another one.

Just using common sense (rarely used in bar pool), if the 8 ball was already pocketed, and the cue ball was no longer in motion then the game is over and it wouldn't (shouldn't) matter.

Timberly <--- not the brightest bulb, but at least has some common sense.

 

[mullyman]

If the game winning ball is pocketed and the cueball, or any other balls it may have contacted, has stopped moving, game over.

The official "3 second" rule is actually 5 seconds. But that only pertains to balls hanging on the edge of the pocket. For example, if player A shoots a ball and it stops on the lip of the pocket and drops within 5 seconds it counts as being pocketed. If it's sitting there for more than 5 seconds, Player B gets up to shoot, nudges the table and it drops, it gets spotted in as close to the same spot that it was in and player B continues to shoot.

I'm almost 100% sure that once you pocket the game winning ball if all balls have stopped moving then it's game over regardless of what you do. If that's not the case then it's a foul when the cueball comes to rest and the person immediately rakes it up to the kitchen for the next break.
MULLY

 

[Da Poet]

If you're using a shot clock, then whatever the rule is that starts the clock at the completion of a shot might help clarify things for your friends a bit.

 

[Snapshot9]

First

let me say that 'all balls' foul should only be the rule for Pros, not amateurs, and anyone that doesn't recognize that is not experienced enough to make the rules anyway.

Second, it is a foul, and the shooter loses.

 

[mullyman]

let me say that 'all balls' foul should only be the rule for Pros, not amateurs, and anyone that doesn't recognize that is not experienced enough to make the rules anyway.

Second, it is a foul, and the shooter loses.

Just a second. If the balls have stopped moving how is it a foul? If it's a foul after the balls stop then it's a foul to push the balls up to the other end of the table for racking. If the person shooting drops the rake and hits a ball while something is still in motion, yeah, it's a foul. But if everything is stopped you can't call a foul on that. You'd never be able to touch the balls to rack them.


I also think that there shouldn't be a difference in rules between pros and amateurs. The rules shouldn't be changed just because Johnny can't control his cue stick. In Japan you can't shoot out after the break in amateur play. Why the hell not? If anything it should be the other way around. A pro should be able to make a better kick on that ball than an amateur.
MULLY

 

[acedotcom]

I agree with the others who say the game's over when the 8-ball's pocketed and the other balls have stopped moving. I've searched thru the various versions of the rules and can't find anything that says the game is still in progress until the bridge is removed from the table.

 

[Cornerman]

A Player is shooting on the 8-ball using the bridge. The 8-ball is pocketed and after a delayed response from the Player, she lifts the bridge up to remove it, but drops it on her opponent's ball that was situated between her and the bridge head, causing said ball to move. The caller doesn't call a foul on this because she reckons that since the 8-ball dropped, the game was over.

Here's my take. In a normal game, say that you're playing foul on all balls. You've run the rack out and pocketed the 8-ball. After all the balls have stopped, you do your normal thing... you grab the balls to rack them. Obviously this isn't a foul since the game is over, even if you've touched a ball on the table. So, I would think the same thing applies with your situation. The game is over. Touching the balls is now okay, provided all balls have stopped moving.

A similar incident happened in the APA Nationals several years ago, and they caught it on tape. The final 8-ball was made and in her elation, the girl tossed her cue on the table which hit an object ball. Problem is that the cueball was still moving!!! I don't think they gave her a loss, even though technically, she fouled while pocketing the 8-ball.

Fred

 

[Snapshot9]

The reason

Here's my take. In a normal game, say that you're playing foul on all balls. You've run the rack out and pocketed the 8-ball. After all the balls have stopped, you do your normal thing... you grab the balls to rack them. Obviously this isn't a foul since the game is over, even if you've touched a ball on the table. So, I would think the same thing applies with your situation. The game is over. Touching the balls is now okay, provided all balls have stopped moving.

A similar incident happened in the APA Nationals several years ago, and they caught it on tape. The final 8-ball was made and in her elation, the girl tossed her cue on the table which hit an object ball. Problem is that the cueball was still moving!!! I don't think they gave her a loss, even though technically, she fouled while pocketing the 8-ball.

Fred

I said it was a foul is because other balls are on the table, else why would you need a bridge, and most people grab the bridge right away after shooting with them because of trying to avoid moving any balls that
might make contact with it, THEREFORE, in all likelyhood the cue ball
would still be moving when she grabbed the rake, but yes, I will concede the point that if all balls had stopped moving completely, then it would not be a foul.

But, then, it raises the question, if a bridge is used as part of a shot, is the shot over before it is removed from the table? Because until the opponent approaches the table, he is not into his shot. If she had approached the table, and had not got down on her shot, but her cue
accidently moved an object ball, it would be a foul. Bob Jewett, where are you?

 

[Billy_Bob]

With most rules, laws, etc., you can go be the "letter of the law/rule" or you can go by what was intended when the law/rule was put in place.

Judges do this. Sometimes the wording of laws does not cover certain situations or several different laws may be in conflict for a certain situation. Judges will think about what the intention of the law was in the first place, then use that as a guideline for a ruling.

With that said, I think the "intention" of pool rules is to prevent cheating or to prevent a player from doing something which gives him an unfair advantage. Fair play!

And in this situation, the game is over after the 8 drops. Moving any balls after the 8 drops will not in any way give any player any sort of unfair advantage as the game is over.

So going by the "intention" of the rules and using common sense, I would say no foul. Most good players would not attempt to call a foul in this situation. It would not matter to me. The 8 has dropped and the game is over.

Now if the cue ball was rolling and about to scratch, and the rake hit the cue ball preventing it from scratching (or something similar), then I would call that a foul. (Just using common sense.)

 

[chefjeff]

Hey All,

I pretty much know the answer to this, but I need to be able to explain this to my teammates and our opponents and have something in the rules section for next year's league play.

I play in a bar league that has an "all balls foul" with a "referee" presiding over each game with a shot clock, *BUT*, we have no legal shot rule. (Heck, it would confuse the women too much while they're busy getting drunk.)

Anyway, we also have a rule that comitting a foul while pocketing the 8-ball is loss of game.

So here's the situation:

A Player is shooting on the 8-ball using the bridge. The 8-ball is pocketed and after a delayed response from the Player, she lifts the bridge up to remove it, but drops it on her opponent's ball that was situated between her and the bridge head, causing said ball to move. The caller doesn't call a foul on this because she reckons that since the 8-ball dropped, the game was over.

When would the player's inning be up when there is no legal hit rule?

What's your call here?

Bueller?? Bueller?? Bob Jewett?

Barbara

Having played on a similar league for about 10 years (then I quit it out of respect for the game) my adivce is simple:

Have fun and NEVER argue about any stupid rule. Offer an alternative at the league meetings, then watch as everyone votes you down, then shutup, your job is done. Have fun or don't play.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston

 

[Eric.]

I'll echo the majority:

If the balls all came to a stop, it's ok to rake balls/touch the table with the bridge/etc.


Eric

 

[socks]

With most rules, laws, etc., you can go be the "letter of the law/rule" or you can go by what was intended when the law/rule was put in place.

Judges do this. Sometimes the wording of laws does not cover certain situations or several different laws may be in conflict for a certain situation. Judges will think about what the intention of the law was in the first place, then use that as a guideline for a ruling.

With that said, I think the "intention" of pool rules is to prevent cheating or to prevent a player from doing something which gives him an unfair advantage. Fair play!

And in this situation, the game is over after the 8 drops. Moving any balls after the 8 drops will not in any way give any player any sort of unfair advantage as the game is over.

So going by the "intention" of the rules and using common sense, I would say no foul. Most good players would not attempt to call a foul in this situation. It would not matter to me. The 8 has dropped and the game is over.

Now if the cue ball was rolling and about to scratch, and the rake hit the cue ball preventing it from scratching (or something similar), then I would call that a foul. (Just using common sense.)

i'll have to agree with billy_bob on this one. from using commen sense and applying the intention of the rule, i would deem it not a foul as long as the touching didnt affect any other outcome.

 

[Barbara]

Hey All,

Thanks for the replies.

I would think that the shot is over when all balls come to a rest, but Snapshot9 has a good point:

But, then, it raises the question, if a bridge is used as part of a shot, is the shot over before it is removed from the table?

But seeing as this was 8-ball and the 8 was successfully pocketed and all balls did come to a rest before she dropped the bridge, I would have to think that this didn't matter in this case.

Still, Bob Jewett's response would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Barbara

 

[Brian in VA]

It's not a foul!

Hey All,

Thanks for the replies.

I would think that the shot is over when all balls come to a rest, but Snapshot9 has a good point:

But, then, it raises the question, if a bridge is used as part of a shot, is the shot over before it is removed from the table?

But seeing as this was 8-ball and the 8 was successfully pocketed and all balls did come to a rest before she dropped the bridge, I would have to think that this didn't matter in this case.

Still, Bob Jewett's response would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Barbara

The shot was complete, all balls had stopped, the game was over. At that point, no foul can be committed.

Brian in Va - just finished taking his referee's test

 

[Timberly]

But, then, it raises the question, if a bridge is used as part of a shot, is the shot over before it is removed from the table?

The shot was complete, all balls had stopped, the game was over. At that point, no foul can be committed.

Brian in Va - just finished taking his referee's test

If the ball pocketed wasn't the 8 ball and the game had not ended, then I could see the bridge issue being a foul.

Timblery <--- not a ref either... still using common sense. In a question about bar pool, I'm still wondering I'm using common sense to try & answer this.

 

[Barbara]

The shot was complete, all balls had stopped, the game was over. At that point, no foul can be committed.

Brian in Va - just finished taking his referee's test

Thanks Brian!

Barbara~~~needs a refresher course...

 

[Barbara]

Timblery <--- not a ref either... still using common sense. In a question about bar pool, I'm still wondering I'm using common sense to try & answer this.

Don't worry Timberly, there's no common sense to this league! We don't have a legal hit rule but we do observe that three consecutive fouls is loss of game.

Barbara