Once and for all!

The ole story

The women's game has gained a lot of ground since Allison came over here in 1995, part of that credit goes to her for setting a new standard in Pool for women. Others have followed, like Karen, Ga Young, Pan, Kelly, a few others. I always love to watch Vivian shoot.

But, overall, for years, the top women's game was about only 79% of the top men's game. Allison raised it up to about 85-90% of the men's game. After the top, about, 8 women in the world, the skill level of women pros drops drasticly.

Here are a few, but not all, reasons why:
1) Boys are subjected to 'war' type games early in life, proprogated into later life by sports they do. This 'do or die' type mentality creates a 'survival instinct' in them that is much stronger than girls experience growing up. Men simply evaluate situations differently than women do, and are usually quicker about it.
This is also, from where, the 'killer instinct' originates from.
2) Most women are simply not as dedicated to the sport as men are in general. They have too many things in their lives that interfere with them being dedicated enough to achieve that desired level of excellence. Kids would be one of those reasons.
3) Most Women have a harder time becoming 'coordinated' and acclimated to sports than men do.
4) I see shots, even today, executed by men players that I doubt that any woman player could execute with consistency, mostly power shots, extra spin shots, etc.. I see many shape shots on TV where a spin shot would get shape very well, and women always choose another option.
5) Only the top 8 have the mental game halfway equivalent to the top 300 men players, and even then, they do not always execute with accuracy, especially safeties.

Just a few reasons and obstacles the ladies have to overcome.

I played Dorothy Wise (Dottie) when I was in my early 20's. She had just won a big tournament in Vegas. She and her boyfriend, and draw for a game, came through Houston, where I lived at the time. I beat her 3 straight sets to 7 on a 9 foot table, 2 $100 sets, and a $200 set. She quit on me. In all honestyj, I could have given her the 7 ball, and at the time, I was getting the 7 from the pro level men players around there.

Now, in all honesty, I have lost once to a woman, for money in 46 years of playing. Finding a woman that plays for money, let alone more than $5 a game, is hard enough. I lost to a woman player that won the National BCA championship, giving her the 7 and the break in 9 ball going to 7, but I also happened to have been high at the time, and had been up for 2 days without sleep. And she just barely beat me.

I usually watch Pool on TV, and they have been showing the ladies 2001/2002 matches on there. I have to say those tables look to break rediculously easy, too easy. Women's playing usually goes down if they are playing on old cloth vs. new. They do not adjust as well to playing conditions as men do.

And another thing, on TV, when the women get what I would call a hard shot, they usually miss it. And out of those top 8 women, maybe 4 bank well.
 
B_White said:
I CAN LIST 500..........AND TO NIP THIS THREAD IN THE BUD I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF IN THE TOP 500 9-BALL PLAYERS IN THE WORLD, BUT WILL PLAY ANY, AND I MEAN ANY WOMAN ON THIS PLANET A 20 AHEAD FOR WHAT THEY CAN COME UP WITH. THE END!


I will cover whatever B Whizzle cant if someone steps up to this challenge. Again, like others have stated, I'm not knocking the women players, but the number of men players that play above the women is enormous. Its basically the same in golf. There are probably 25,000 men that could win on the LPGA, but there are 0 women that could win on the PGA. From 6000-6400 yards there are a ton of people including myself that can shoot under par and that is what the ladies play on each week. The statement about Annika beating Tiger is very comical. If they play 50 times from over 7000 yards, Tiger wins all 50. Put Brian on the WPBA tour next year and he is the number one player. IMO
 
corvette1340 said:
I will cover whatever B Whizzle cant if someone steps up to this challenge. Again, like others have stated, I'm not knocking the women players, but the number of men players that play above the women is enormous. Its basically the same in golf. There are probably 25,000 men that could win on the LPGA, but there are 0 women that could win on the PGA. From 6000-6400 yards there are a ton of people including myself that can shoot under par and that is what the ladies play on each week. The statement about Annika beating Tiger is very comical. If they play 50 times from over 7000 yards, Tiger wins all 50. Put Brian on the WPBA tour next year and he is the number one player. IMO

I will take that bet Vette - put Brian on the WPBA and he won't get close to number one. Period.

Remember he is the one that says any woman can get lucky and beat any man in a short set? Well that is what the WPBA tournaments are and he has to fade short sets the whole way.

I find it hilarious though that NOW he wants to play 20 ahead and 50 ahead and 10 million ahead.

IF I were in the States and I had enough money I would let Bryan play Kelly Fisher even up - no spot - 100 games for $1000 per game. I 'might' lose but then again Bryan might get his nuts shot off when Kelly starts hitting him with runs of 3 and 4 and plays safe and then another 3 pack and so on.

I think Bryan is a good shortstop but he won't even begin to fade the heat Kelly will put on him when he realizes he trapped himself into a LONG session where she absorbs whatever little bit that he knows that she doesn't yet.

I know Kelly shoots straighter than Bryan does. Don't believe me - good then we can make the same 20 ahead bet for $200,000 and let them play Snooker on a regulation 6x12 - any takers on that action????? Of course not.

How is Bryan going to like it when whatever moves he put on Kelly to win games are put back on him by someone who overall is the better player. You see, she learns, he doesn't.

Who knows? Maybe something will get set up - maybe we will get to see if Bryan Riggs can beat a top woman player. I know his cousin Bobby lost to Billie Jean King in tennis when he made the same boast. And Bobby was a shortstop tennis player who also thought he could beat any woman in the world.

I will make it a goal in 2008 to see if we can't Mr. White matched up since he so desperately wants to beat a woman.
 
rossaroni said:
There have been many different opinions about the male vs. female topic, and I don't think one person have never said that some of the women play great. Some people call other people sexist and blind for not saying that Allison or Karen could beat the top men. We need to just put an end to these debates and have a few male vs. female challenge matches. I may think that Allison can't beat so an so, but that in no way means that I don't respect her as a great pool player. I don't know if the only thing that seperates men from the women is numbers, but whatever the case, I don't think any idiots ever said the women don't play great. They just may not be favored in a long set against certain male players.

I agree. However it's the NEVER EVER absolutes that get me. These guys who all like to make excuses whenever a woman wins a set against a man then they come with well if they played an ahead set then the woman would NEVER EVER win?

Seriously? That is just stupid.

That assumes that a woman is NOT CAPABLE of doing what a man can do ON A POOL TABLE.

I refuse to believe that. I have seen first hand that a woman can execute every shot presented to her. I have seen firsthand that a woman can put multiple packs together in 9 ball, ten ball, and 8 ball from the break on tight equipment.

I have seen that a woman can learn while in a money game and put that knowledge to work CORRECTLY right away to get the advantage on her side.

I have seen that a woman can play lock up safeties, execute perfect jump shots, bank the balls the right way with position and so on.

I have also seen that some top women professionals show a distinct lack of balls and an obviously enormous amount of brains for not playing the testosterone game and trying to "prove" that they are better than every wannabe shortstop who can't make it past regional events.

I don't understand why when a male wins a tournament against a strong field then he played good, but when a woman wins a tournament against a strong field of men, as Allison has done on Kennedy's tour and as Karen has done on the Joss tour, that they got lucky or that their opponent played bad?

WHY CAN'T WE SIMPLY TREAT WOMEN AND MEN AS PLAYERS?????
 
JB Cases said:
I will take that bet Vette - put Brian on the WPBA and he won't get close to number one. Period.

Remember he is the one that says any woman can get lucky and beat any man in a short set? Well that is what the WPBA tournaments are and he has to fade short sets the whole way.

I find it hilarious though that NOW he wants to play 20 ahead and 50 ahead and 10 million ahead.

IF I were in the States and I had enough money I would let Bryan play Kelly Fisher even up - no spot - 100 games for $1000 per game. I 'might' lose but then again Bryan might get his nuts shot off when Kelly starts hitting him with runs of 3 and 4 and plays safe and then another 3 pack and so on.

I think Bryan is a good shortstop but he won't even begin to fade the heat Kelly will put on him when he realizes he trapped himself into a LONG session where she absorbs whatever little bit that he knows that she doesn't yet.

I know Kelly shoots straighter than Bryan does. Don't believe me - good then we can make the same 20 ahead bet for $200,000 and let them play Snooker on a regulation 6x12 - any takers on that action????? Of course not.

How is Bryan going to like it when whatever moves he put on Kelly to win games are put back on him by someone who overall is the better player. You see, she learns, he doesn't.

Who knows? Maybe something will get set up - maybe we will get to see if Bryan Riggs can beat a top woman player. I know his cousin Bobby lost to Billie Jean King in tennis when he made the same boast. And Bobby was a shortstop tennis player who also thought he could beat any woman in the world.

I will make it a goal in 2008 to see if we can't Mr. White matched up since he so desperately wants to beat a woman.


of course he would lose every now and then on the WPBA, but for the year I think he would lead the points, player of the year, money title or whatever they have in place to distinguish rankings. He has already said that he would play and if you set it up between Kelly Snooker and him then I will bet as many Euros as you can get on the flight over.
 
JB Cases said:
I will take that bet Vette - put Brian on the WPBA and he won't get close to number one. Period.

Remember he is the one that says any woman can get lucky and beat any man in a short set? Well that is what the WPBA tournaments are and he has to fade short sets the whole way.

I find it hilarious though that NOW he wants to play 20 ahead and 50 ahead and 10 million ahead.

IF I were in the States and I had enough money I would let Bryan play Kelly Fisher even up - no spot - 100 games for $1000 per game. I 'might' lose but then again Bryan might get his nuts shot off when Kelly starts hitting him with runs of 3 and 4 and plays safe and then another 3 pack and so on.

I think Bryan is a good shortstop but he won't even begin to fade the heat Kelly will put on him when he realizes he trapped himself into a LONG session where she absorbs whatever little bit that he knows that she doesn't yet.

I know Kelly shoots straighter than Bryan does. Don't believe me - good then we can make the same 20 ahead bet for $200,000 and let them play Snooker on a regulation 6x12 - any takers on that action????? Of course not.

How is Bryan going to like it when whatever moves he put on Kelly to win games are put back on him by someone who overall is the better player. You see, she learns, he doesn't.

Who knows? Maybe something will get set up - maybe we will get to see if Bryan Riggs can beat a top woman player. I know his cousin Bobby lost to Billie Jean King in tennis when he made the same boast. And Bobby was a shortstop tennis player who also thought he could beat any woman in the world.

I will make it a goal in 2008 to see if we can't Mr. White matched up since he so desperately wants to beat a woman.
Just to show your stupidity and lack of knowledge. I went to play kelly at her home poolroom and she and her stakehorse said they could not play without the 7! So who exactly can't stand the heat? AND SINCE YOU WANT TO SAY SHE LEARNS AND I DON'T, AND YOU WANT TO BRING UP "MOVING" I GUESS WE CAN PLAY A SET OF 1 POCKET TOO, HUH?
 
Last edited:
I also want to add a thank you to JB Cases for confirming what I first said in this thread. You sir said that i was a shortstop. If in fact I am a shortstop and Kelly is no favorite against me what does that say? How would she and the other top women fair against the top men? Which in fact was the question this thread was started on. So, thank you JB for proving my point for me. :)
 
corvette1340 said:
of course he would lose every now and then on the WPBA, but for the year I think he would lead the points, player of the year, money title or whatever they have in place to distinguish rankings. He has already said that he would play and if you set it up between Kelly Snooker and him then I will bet as many Euros as you can get on the flight over.

Yeah I got that you want to bet on Bryan. Noted. I will be sure to remind you of it when and IF the time comes. I am sure that IF that time comes then I and Kelly's backer will be covering all the rail wants to bet.

Personally I see this as a golden opportunity to make some gold - but I don't think Bryan can get the kind of funding I have in mind. But we will see what happens.

I haven't even talked to Kelly yet. But I mentioned her name as I feel that confident in her skills against Bryan. But she doesn't need to waste her time for cheap sets against shortstops. If there is going to be some testosterone slinging then let's make it really hurt for the losers.

I don't suppose that you and Bryan would be up for a good old fashioned all around would you? A session of 10 ball and a session of Snooker? I mean it should be no problem right? Bryan is so far above her that he should win any game of billiards no matter what the rules and table conditions right???

Y'all up for that? TAR - I hope to be in touch soon.


P.S. Vette I think you better figure out how to prevent getting dumped because the odds against Kelly will be tempting for sure.
 
corvette1340 said:
I will cover whatever B Whizzle cant if someone steps up to this challenge. Again, like others have stated, I'm not knocking the women players, but the number of men players that play above the women is enormous. Its basically the same in golf. There are probably 25,000 men that could win on the LPGA, but there are 0 women that could win on the PGA. From 6000-6400 yards there are a ton of people including myself that can shoot under par and that is what the ladies play on each week. The statement about Annika beating Tiger is very comical. If they play 50 times from over 7000 yards, Tiger wins all 50. Put Brian on the WPBA tour next year and he is the number one player. IMO

Man, seeing B Wizzle playing on 5" pockets and brand new cloth would get boring after a while...he may never miss. ;) Seriously though, a player like Jean Balukas and Allison only come along about once every 10-15 years. Jasmin will probably be the next female fenom, and even with her great break she would still struggle against the top males. JMO.
Southpaw
 
B_White said:
Just to show your stupidity and lack of knowledge. I went to play kelly at her home poolroom and she and her stakehorse said they could not play without the 7! So who exactly can't stand the heat? AND SINCE YOU WANT TO SAY SHE LEARNS AND I DON'T, AND YOU WANT TO BRING UP "MOVING" I GUESS WE CAN PLAY A SET OF 1 POCKET TOO, HUH?

Well then why didn't you give up the weight? You already said you are the better player - what were you looking to do, steal? Nah, you wouldn't want to do that would you?

Bryan I am positive that Kelly would rob you if she played ANY game long enough to learn the moves. And believe me IF I were in a position to back Kelly to that point I would.

The only reason you have ANY advantage over her is her lack of heads up gambling experience and lack of 9/10 ball and one pocket experience.

When that edge evaporates then Kelly will blow past you and leave you in the dust.

It's funny how you want to crow about how much better than you are than ALL the women in the world and yet you won't give up the seven. Really sporty there champ. Just another lock artist looking to steal I guess. At least that is how I read your comments about being better but not wanting to give up any weight.

Sure, one of these days we will get matched up and you will get to play her and add another notch to your cue - or maybe not. But let's see if you are willing to play a game where she has more experience than you do - Snooker on a real 6x12. Are you willing to play that too big boy? I will back Kelly to play you even 10 ball if you agree to bet the same amount and play her snooker.

As for my point and your point - I understood yours perfectly and you missed mine entirely.

I guarantee you this Bryan, IF Kelly were to match up with Johnny/Rodney/Shane etc... for a week then you would need the 7 from Kelly after that week was over. Because she learns, absorbs, and executes.

I think her backer was smart to ask you for the seven. You are there to steal and they aren't there to donate. You already knocked yourself by crowing about how much better you are than ALL the women.

So live with it.
 
Southpaw said:
Man, seeing B Wizzle playing on 5" pockets and brand new cloth would get boring after a while...he may never miss. ;) Seriously though, a player like Jean Balukas and Allison only come along about once every 10-15 years. Jasmin will probably be the next female fenom, and even with her great break she would still struggle against the top males. JMO.
Southpaw

He would have to start his own Shortstop Tour though because the women play on 4.5" pockets and practice on 4.25".

Seeing Bryan fade the heat of getting on TV because he can't make it on the men's tour and watching him get his brains beat in on short sets under the tv lights would be entertaining for sure.
 
JB Cases said:
He would have to start his own Shortstop Tour though because the women play on 4.5" pockets and practice on 4.25".

Seeing Bryan fade the heat of getting on TV because he can't make it on the men's tour and watching him get his brains beat in on short sets under the tv lights would be entertaining for sure.

I damn sure wouldnt say Brian cant make it on the Pro Tour. Look how many people enter the Smokey Mountain Shootout every year...then look and see who has won it the most times. Not to mention all the tournies he has won in the Southeast. I think you have him under-rated.

Southpaw
 
Southpaw said:
I damn sure wouldnt say Brian cant make it on the Pro Tour. Look how many people enter the Smokey Mountain Shootout every year...then look and see who has won it the most times. Not to mention all the tournies he has won in the Southeast. I think you have him under-rated.

Southpaw

Naw, I know Bryan can dab it.

I also know he displays a chauvinistic attitude towards women players.

I don't understand though why he wouldn't give up the 7 to Kelly? Let's review;

Bryan White regularly beats established pro males.
He plays pro speed.
He says girls can NEVER EVER win against pro-speed males in ahead sets.
(first it was 7-ahead sets but then later he wanted to play 20 ahead sets)
But he won't give up the 7 to a player that he is clearly vastly superior to by his own statement and the statements of many others.

Anyway, it's all academic - at this point Bryan White is pool's Bobby Riggs as far as I can see it.

Maybe a woman will step up to the challenge and TAR can cover it and the rail can bet the moon and maybe that will get some mention beyond the toilet paper side of the village paper.

As for me, I have it as a goal to get Kelly and Bryan matched up. Probably won't happen but if it does I am charging admission :-)

I am sure that most of you will offer fair odds when I take the "weaker" player right?
 
JB Cases said:
Well then why didn't you give up the weight? You already said you are the better player - what were you looking to do, steal? Nah, you wouldn't want to do that would you?

Bryan I am positive that Kelly would rob you if she played ANY game long enough to learn the moves. And believe me IF I were in a position to back Kelly to that point I would.

The only reason you have ANY advantage over her is her lack of heads up gambling experience and lack of 9/10 ball and one pocket experience.

When that edge evaporates then Kelly will blow past you and leave you in the dust.

It's funny how you want to crow about how much better than you are than ALL the women in the world and yet you won't give up the seven. Really sporty there champ. Just another lock artist looking to steal I guess. At least that is how I read your comments about being better but not wanting to give up any weight.

Sure, one of these days we will get matched up and you will get to play her and add another notch to your cue - or maybe not. But let's see if you are willing to play a game where she has more experience than you do - Snooker on a real 6x12. Are you willing to play that too big boy? I will back Kelly to play you even 10 ball if you agree to bet the same amount and play her snooker.

As for my point and your point - I understood yours perfectly and you missed mine entirely.

I guarantee you this Bryan, IF Kelly were to match up with Johnny/Rodney/Shane etc... for a week then you would need the 7 from Kelly after that week was over. Because she learns, absorbs, and executes.

I think her backer was smart to ask you for the seven. You are there to steal and they aren't there to donate. You already knocked yourself by crowing about how much better you are than ALL the women.

So live with it.
You're putting words in my mouth sir. I never said I was much better than the top women. I said the top men were much better than the top women. Get your facts straight.
 
I hafta comment on the Tiger thing....course over 7000 yards; tough, I think he'd win either 49 or 50 outta 50 against any woman. But, give Tiger the same course, tees, conditions, etc. as what Annika had for her 59 - how many times outta 50 can he beat that score???
 
Snapshot9 said:
The women's game has gained a lot of ground since Allison came over here in 1995, part of that credit goes to her for setting a new standard in Pool for women. Others have followed, like Karen, Ga Young, Pan, Kelly, a few others. I always love to watch Vivian shoot.

But, overall, for years, the top women's game was about only 79% of the top men's game. Allison raised it up to about 85-90% of the men's game. After the top, about, 8 women in the world, the skill level of women pros drops drasticly.

Here are a few, but not all, reasons why:
1) Boys are subjected to 'war' type games early in life, proprogated into later life by sports they do. This 'do or die' type mentality creates a 'survival instinct' in them that is much stronger than girls experience growing up. Men simply evaluate situations differently than women do, and are usually quicker about it.
This is also, from where, the 'killer instinct' originates from.
2) Most women are simply not as dedicated to the sport as men are in general. They have too many things in their lives that interfere with them being dedicated enough to achieve that desired level of excellence. Kids would be one of those reasons.
3) Most Women have a harder time becoming 'coordinated' and acclimated to sports than men do.
4) I see shots, even today, executed by men players that I doubt that any woman player could execute with consistency, mostly power shots, extra spin shots, etc.. I see many shape shots on TV where a spin shot would get shape very well, and women always choose another option.
5) Only the top 8 have the mental game halfway equivalent to the top 300 men players, and even then, they do not always execute with accuracy, especially safeties.

Just a few reasons and obstacles the ladies have to overcome.

I played Dorothy Wise (Dottie) when I was in my early 20's. She had just won a big tournament in Vegas. She and her boyfriend, and draw for a game, came through Houston, where I lived at the time. I beat her 3 straight sets to 7 on a 9 foot table, 2 $100 sets, and a $200 set. She quit on me. In all honestyj, I could have given her the 7 ball, and at the time, I was getting the 7 from the pro level men players around there.

Now, in all honesty, I have lost once to a woman, for money in 46 years of playing. Finding a woman that plays for money, let alone more than $5 a game, is hard enough. I lost to a woman player that won the National BCA championship, giving her the 7 and the break in 9 ball going to 7, but I also happened to have been high at the time, and had been up for 2 days without sleep. And she just barely beat me.

I usually watch Pool on TV, and they have been showing the ladies 2001/2002 matches on there. I have to say those tables look to break rediculously easy, too easy. Women's playing usually goes down if they are playing on old cloth vs. new. They do not adjust as well to playing conditions as men do.

And another thing, on TV, when the women get what I would call a hard shot, they usually miss it. And out of those top 8 women, maybe 4 bank well.

A lot of good points here.

When I was growing up in the '50s and early 60's, women's professional sports were practically nonexistent. Most of the girls were brought up to be Betty Crocker and the guys, Johnny Unitas.Women competing in sports was not high on many family's lists. Any woman that played sports of any kind and had good hand-eye coordination, was suspet and her sexual preference was immediately questioned. Simply put, a woman's place was in the home.

By the end of the 60's and the start of the women's equal rights movement, women's pro sports edged into the limelight with some TV coverage.

The Bobby Riggs-Billie Jean King match thrust women's sports on to the front page.

Then, the ladies started demanding equal pay. Many said if the women want equal pay, let them play heads up with the men. Martina Navratilova refused to comment on the issue for a long time. Finally, in one interview, she said she was happy as a clam for the two seperate divisions because she knew she could not win against the top 150 men and she would have to find another career if the divisions were united.

High schools and colleges started having seperate divisions for women's sports. With the influx of sport's scholarships for women and more TV coverage, the attitude of women competing on the same stage of the men changed.

In pocket billiards, Jean Balukas (sp) dominated the sport and basiscally, throughout her career, had no rivals. She opened the door for the women of today and they should thank her for it.

I've watched this game for more than 45 years and I can tell you one thing. There are many more women competing today and overall, their level of play has consistantly risen over the last 15 years.

Can the top ladies compete heads up with the top men now?

Not a chance in the long race, but you never know. The next ladies' pool equivalent to Tigress Woods may just be around the next corner.

Stones

(Tigress Woods, get it? Aw, hell, I thought it was funny!)
 
Last edited:
B_White said:
You're putting words in my mouth sir. I never said I was much better than the top women. I said the top men were much better than the top women. Get your facts straight.

You must hate your money then because you said that you would play any woman a 20 ahead set.

So IF that isn't saying you are better then what is it saying?

Are you saying that there is a 50/50 chance that the woman would win? Or is there no chance? Which is it?

Do you tell your backer that you aren't better than your opponent when you are trying to match up?

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth Bryan, just trying to understand the ones that did come out of your mouth already.
 
DrJ said:
Well if I counted right, 6 of the top 20 listed money winners last year were ladies, what if we count it that way...(oh look, Ga-Young Kim made more than Efren, Franscisco and Alex)....

that just goes to show you how well the ladies tour is run compared to the mens, not a measure of who plays better
 
addition problem

I don't believe that the best woman players have a chance to beat the best men players in a long race. Whom do I consider the best men players,the top 30. But when I hear some people say that there are 500 men players that are a favorite over AF , I kinda want to start side betting for a living again. In the 90's AF and Grady toured with their challenge matches, and at the end of their lengthy tour it was too close to call. It would be safe to say at that time that Grady was clearly in the top 100 best 9 ball players in the world . Seems like to me quite a few people have an addition problem. More like at best 150 instead of 500.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top