Out of Ideas

bubsbug

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have installed my rear chuck and adapter for the upteeth time only to find my best attampt is .010 out. I have placed the adapter in the main chuck and I am less than .001 out. I haved checked the rear O.D. of the spindle and I am less than .001. When testing adapter at the rear position im out .005. when testing rear chuck im out another .005. I am now out by .010. When something is placed in the rear chuck jaws Im out by.009. What can I do to fix it.

On another note, for thise who use collets in the rear how do you get to perfect, since most spindles are very rough on the inside?
 
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I hope you read this carefully

Bubsburg: Your little back chuck was not made to close tolerance, or designed to be expected to be. So we need to tweak it in. You have put some effort into making your adaptor, is the thread for your chuck cut concentric to the solid unthreaded area between the two sets of threads? In other words did you true up that solid smooth area? I hope you say yes here. Both sets of threads, and the outer smooth surface should all be concentric and true if you made them off of one solid mounting of your stock in the lathe and did not disturb that mounting until you were finished with the adapter and were ready to part it off. So here is how we can make it accurate:

The next step is to install a pin in the little back chuck while it is mounted onto the rear of your lathe. Use a pin of an OD that matches what you would customarily use that chuck to grasp. Maybe use 35mm or 1 3/8 in? Then make collets for that size OD for all your cue work.Remember: a chuck, even a run true chuck can only be expected to be accurate for one size opening! Measure the runout and put some masking tape on the jaws and write the runout on the tape. Now, remove the back chuck, adapter, and dowel pin all as a unit from the rear of the lathe spindle, and mount up the trio in your main chuck jaws. Chuck up on the smooth area of the adapter with your main chuck on the lathe. Yes, you have a chuck hanging out of a chuck. Indicate that in, or use a four jaw chuck, better yet, and indicate in. Indicate off of the adapter surface not the pin or the chuck body.
You should have your back chuck adapter running concentric to the main spindle bore now. Is the pin still running way out? Is the pin off in the same areas? Do the inaccuracies match the numbers on the masking tape.? If you did a good job making your adapter, they will be close in errors. That is the best to hope for. To fix it, just regrip the pin very deep in your back chuck while it is still held firmly in your main chuck. Use a grinder mounted on your tool post and very carefully grind the mostly exposed inner grip area of the lathe jaws of that little chuck. You may also use a sharp boring bar at the slowest feed rate. Just be sure to have that 35 mm dowel chucked in the rear of the jaws of your little chuck to preload the jaws and keep them at the opening you chose, be it 35 mm or whatever! After cutting or grinding, they will be trued up to the adapter you made for mounting that chuck. Then mill , or cut away the nib that was not cut in the trueing process and you have a set of jaws in your back chuck that run true to your adapter, at that specific jaw opening.
Now a worst case scenario: Your numbers of runout are not even close from the back of the spindle. I suggest you either shim a three jaw, or if you listened and used a four jaw, then tweak the four jaw to get the pin numbers to match what you first read on the rear chuck test. Now the little back chuck is running close to what it did when mounted on the rear of the main spindle. Then cut and true up your little jaw faces as we did above. You have a tru running chuck, at THAT specific jaw opening, for the rear of your spindle.
Seems like it is too hard? Too much bother? Hey I am sure many savvy mechanics out there have seen the holes in my explanations. I only assumed the errors are in one plane! Are the jaws off in another plane are the main jaw chuck errors accounted for? If you used a longer pin to test would the readings not change in a linear relationship to the first set of readings? We will not even go there unless you have a few months to get this right. I am sure others here have felt that pain though, and some have most likely conquered it!
 
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Great explanation olsonview!!

That is how my machinist friend made my adaptor- all the machining was done BEFORE the part was removed from his chuck!

I indicated the smooth part of the spindle. I did not measure the threads...too complicated for me!!

So we did it this way:

He bored the id, turned the od and cut the threads for the chuck all why the blank was in his lathe chuck- never removing the piece as this is the only way to make sure EVERYTHING is concentric IMO. We then mounted the same chuck you have there (which should have aluminum soft -jaws on it already) onto the threaded adaptor and bored the jaws to 1-3/8 id with everthing still in his chuck. This is done to accept 1-3/8" od delrin collets that have id tapers. Then he parted off the adaptor.

You should also have atleast (4) threaded thru holes 90 degrees apart in your adaptor for securing it onto/ into? the smooth part of the back of your spindle. Some use these for locating the chuck to true (adjustability), some drill thru these into the lathe spindle and tap them for securing the adaptor INTO the spindle- insuring that it won't spin off!

My measurements were a little off so the piece was too tight to "slip- fit" on. I put some ice cubes in the spindle and it shrunk the spindle enough for me to slide the adapter onto the spindle and inidicate it true before removing the ice.

So now I actually have a "press-fit" adaptor instead of one that requires the set screws...but I threaded thru my spindle anyways since the screw holes were already there. Runs very true!!

Hope this helps...:)

Chris
 
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Good job poulos

I think Bubsburg already made a threaded insert on both ends. His adapter internally treads into his lathe spindle if I read the photos correctly in an earlier thread, the pics are blurred.
Basically he just needs to thread the adapter onto his back chuck and true up the jaws as you did. But he needs to use a fourjaw, or very true three jaw and then cut the soft jaws. Which is the long explanation I offered. I think he needs the details as he is still learning.
 
olsonsview said:
I think Bubsburg already made a threaded insert on both ends. His adapter internally treads into his lathe spindle if I read the photos correctly in an earlier thread, the pics are blurred.
Basically he just needs to thread the adapter onto his back chuck and true up the jaws as you did. But he needs to use a fourjaw, or very true three jaw and then cut the soft jaws. Which is the long explanation I offered. I think he needs the details as he is still learning.
My job was to get the thing on and dial it in! LOL!!! He did the machining:D

I would think it would be more difficult to cut a matching spindle id thread into the adaptor? You have tolerance/clearance for the threads- doesn't this mean run-out even though his threads are concentric to the od of his adaptor?? This is why the set screws for adjustablilty are important due to the fact that we have no way to bore the id of the chuck jaws once it is mounted on the back of the lathe.

This is why I located on the smooth part of the end of the spindle. If you opt to thread the id to match the threads sticking out of the end of the spindle, it would probably be best to use an adjustable "buck" chuck there I guess so you could easily dial it in....

If he locates on the od of his part in his jaws, how does he fix the potential run-out problem due to the internal thread clearances?

Maybe you already answered that.
IMO of course...AS I AM NO MASTER MACHINIST and I am definately NOT challenging you here!!!!!!!
Chris
 
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Poulos Cues said:
My job was to get the thing on and dial it in! LOL!!! He did the machining:D

I would think it would be more difficult to cut a matching spindle id thread into the adaptor? You have tolerance/clearance for the threads- doesn't this mean run-out even though his threads are concentric to the od of his adaptor?? This is why the set screws for adjustablilty are important due to the fact that we have no way to bore the id of the chuck jaws once it is mounted on the back of the lathe.

This is why I located on the smooth part of the end of the spindle. If you opt to thread the id to match the threads sticking out of the end of the spindle, it would probably be best to use an adjustable "buck" chuck there I guess so you could easily dial it in....

If he locates on the od of his part in his jaws, how does he fix the potential run-out problem due to the internal thread clearances?

Maybe you already answered that.
IMO of course...AS I AM NO MASTER MACHINIST and I am definately NOT challenging you here!!!!!!!
Chris

On literally every engineering endeavor in history it is known that bolts and nuts and THREADS are used for one thing and that is holding two or more things together. Threads are never used for alignment if precision is to be expected. On all lathes, neither threaded spindles nor cam-lock types, do the threads align the chuck, the Register does this. Truthfully, a chuck needs to have some slop in the threads to be mounted with any precision. In this way the register can align the faceplate or chuck.

Normally, the faceplate is mounted on the spindle as accurately possible on the spindles register. Then a cut is made across the face of the plate to ensure that the plate face is running true with the spindle and bed of the lathe. When that has been done then a register is turned on the face of the faceplate for the chuck. This makes everything true to the spindle.

On the back of the spindle we have a problem as there is no register to align the adapter. The correct way to make this back chuck to be dead true would be to take the spindle out and mount it in another lathe to true all up but usually this a little more complex than what we want to get into.

The last time I mounted a rear chuck I never even threaded the adapter. I trued up a steel bar larger than my final size. I then bored one end large enough in diameter and in depth to easily pass over the threads on the rear of the spindle. I then remounted the bar in the other direction and turned the bar to accommodate the chuck. I then bored the bar so as to be a little less than .001 of the size of the spindle. I mounted the chuck and then honed the chucks jaws so as to be concentric with the adapter that has not been moved from the lathe after it's initial set up. After trying a couple of test bars to ensure all was true I removed the chuck and adapter and drilled and tapped 4 holes in which I put set screws to lock in place once mounted on the back spindle. I then put the whole works into an oven and heat it up to expand so as to be able to install onto the spindle.

Might be better ways but this is the easiest that I have found. Although I use a tru-set chuck on the front I don't on the back as they are expensive and since the back plate can't be trued you can't get them to run dead nuts because of the yaw.

Dick
 
olsonsview said:
Bubsburg: Your little back chuck was not made to close tolerance, or designed to be expected to be. So we need to tweak it in. You have put some effort into making your adaptor, is the thread for your chuck cut concentric to the solid unthreaded area between the two sets of threads? In other words did you true up that solid smooth area? I hope you say yes here. Both sets of threads, and the outer smooth surface should all be concentric and true if you made them off of one solid mounting of your stock in the lathe and did not disturb that mounting until you were finished with the adapter and were ready to part it off. So here is how we can make it accurate:

The next step is to install a pin in the little back chuck while it is mounted onto the rear of your lathe. Use a pin of an OD that matches what you would customarily use that chuck to grasp. Maybe use 35mm or 1 3/8 in? Then make collets for that size OD for all your cue work.Remember: a chuck, even a run true chuck can only be expected to be accurate for one size opening! Measure the runout and put some masking tape on the jaws and write the runout on the tape. Now, remove the back chuck, adapter, and dowel pin all as a unit from the rear of the lathe spindle, and mount up the trio in your main chuck jaws. Chuck up on the smooth area of the adapter with your main chuck on the lathe. Yes, you have a chuck hanging out of a chuck. Indicate that in, or use a four jaw chuck, better yet, and indicate in. Indicate off of the adapter surface not the pin or the chuck body.
You should have your back chuck adapter running concentric to the main spindle bore now. Is the pin still running way out? Is the pin off in the same areas? Do the inaccuracies match the numbers on the masking tape.? If you did a good job making your adapter, they will be close in errors. That is the best to hope for. To fix it, just regrip the pin very deep in your back chuck while it is still held firmly in your main chuck. Use a grinder mounted on your tool post and very carefully grind the mostly exposed inner grip area of the lathe jaws of that little chuck. You may also use a sharp boring bar at the slowest feed rate. Just be sure to have that 35 mm dowel chucked in the rear of the jaws of your little chuck to preload the jaws and keep them at the opening you chose, be it 35 mm or whatever! After cutting or grinding, they will be trued up to the adapter you made for mounting that chuck. Then mill , or cut away the nib that was not cut in the trueing process and you have a set of jaws in your back chuck that run true to your adapter, at that specific jaw opening.
Now a worst case scenario: Your numbers of runout are not even close from the back of the spindle. I suggest you either shim a three jaw, or if you listened and used a four jaw, then tweak the four jaw to get the pin numbers to match what you first read on the rear chuck test. Now the little back chuck is running close to what it did when mounted on the rear of the main spindle. Then cut and true up your little jaw faces as we did above. You have a tru running chuck, at THAT specific jaw opening, for the rear of your spindle.
Seems like it is too hard? Too much bother? Hey I am sure many savvy mechanics out there have seen the holes in my explanations. I only assumed the errors are in one plane! Are the jaws off in another plane are the main jaw chuck errors accounted for? If you used a longer pin to test would the readings not change in a linear relationship to the first set of readings? We will not even go there unless you have a few months to get this right. I am sure others here have felt that pain though, and some have most likely conquered it!

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I think I am going to give it some time. I am going to read the post a few more times before i start any work. I think I undestand what i need to do, I hope. basically I need to true up the jaws of the rear chuch and let the O.D. of the chuck body and adapter just do its thing. I am pretty sure the sholder part of the adapter is very square. the last thing I did there was to face the sholder off on both sides. I hired a machinast to put the threads on. I do notice that the sholder has a small grove on both sides that was done by him when threading. He said that this was needed so things would tighten up snug against the sholder to bottom out. Well se what happens, again thanks. I am almost to the point of purchasing a bench top model. i think i need one anyways for wraps. It is getting fustrating though.
 
bubsbug said:
I hired a machinast to put the threads on. I do notice that the sholder has a small grove on both sides that was done by him when threading. He said that this was needed so things would tighten up snug against the sholder to bottom out. Well se what happens, again thanks. I am almost to the point of purchasing a bench top model. i think i need one anyways for wraps. It is getting fustrating though.
I beleive that is called a "thread relief". :)
Chris
 
Frustration is well known to all of us

I like to think it builds patience?
I have the same problems with getting my setups accurate. Thanks to many of the craftsmen here for helping me dial in! I learn more every single day. I think the whole concept of working with wood, and trying to consistently maintain accuracy in terms of 1 thousanth of an inch is in itself a challenge no matter how well you tune your equipment. I personally prefer to not depend on my backchuck for dead nuts accuracy. I depend on it to be close, and use it to steady my longer workpieces. Honestly, if I am working with an A-arm, or just a handle, my distance between the chucks is too great for either section. I use the rear chuck mostly for when I am repairing either end of a completed butt. For boring holes concentric and doing pins and getting those dead nuts I have confidence in my center rest and bearing with soft collets of teflon. That setup which I told you about a month ago or so is way easier to set up and get running true.
I do all my shaft joints and ferrules on a separate lathe, a small South Bend that I made a steel collar for the rear spindle that takes one of many of simple bushings to steady the rear of the shaft. A few collets handle the majority of shafts I need to work on. I keep delrin on hand for that oddball shaft.
By the way nothing is DNP, you only have to look close to see the flaws!
 
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olsonsview said:
I have confidence in my center rest and bearing with soft collets of teflon...I keep delrin on hand for that oddball shaft...
You mention both teflon and delirin for collets. Would you mind elaborating as to why you use both? Pro's and Con's?
PM me if you wish:)
Thanks in advance.
Chris
 
delrin vs teflon

They both machine nice and make good collets. Delrin is cheaper and works well. But if I get carried away and overtighten a chuck with a delrin collet it may dimple the wood under it. The teflon seems to forgive more and grips softer. Another cuemaker here pointed me to the teflon, and I thank him.
I had some teflon in my cuttoff bin that cost me nothing to make my collets from, so the price was right. I wish I had more as I really prefer the teflon.
 
olsonsview said:
They both machine nice and make good collets. Delrin is cheaper and works well. But if I get carried away and overtighten a chuck with a delrin collet it may dimple the wood under it. The teflon seems to forgive more and grips softer. Another cuemaker here pointed me to the teflon, and I thank him.
I had some teflon in my cuttoff bin that cost me nothing to make my collets from, so the price was right. I wish I had more as I really prefer the teflon.
I will have to try that..I know what you mean about the Delrin denting the cue:eek:

Thanks.
Chris
 
Poulos Cues said:
I will have to try that..I know what you mean about the Delrin denting the cue:eek:

Thanks.
Chris
I know I am one of teflon's proponents but this is something you need to be aware of. While teflon is softer & more forgiving on your finished product, it will dent or slip more easily than delrin, depending on how you use it. Inside a bearing or a 5C or 2J collet - it is wonderful. But a 3 jaw chuck can easily dent the teflon causing repeatability errors later on.
 
dzcues said:
I know I am one of teflon's proponents but this is something you need to be aware of. While teflon is softer & more forgiving on your finished product, it will dent or slip more easily than delrin, depending on how you use it. Inside a bearing or a 5C or 2J collet - it is wonderful. But a 3 jaw chuck can easily dent the teflon causing repeatability errors later on.



I made one out of teflon just for cues with a fresh finish on them, but as You say I use them in My steady bearing. The reason was not only because of delrin denting It, as much As It would scratch the finish If It slips sometimes, and It was a pain to have to fix everytime, when I could have selted on the finish that was already on the cue without more work. With the teflon I don't have that problem, and I can wedge It tight in the bearing, but as You say I don't Use It in the jaws. As hard as I would have to clamp down On It to actually hold, It could throw things out. I'd rather have to to touchup the finish If I had to, then have the runnout to deal with.

With delrin collets one of the biggest areas of concern seems to be in the champers. Get the champers just right, and It may do less damage, unless you have to really over torq them, but I understand well that sometimes It does come up where extra clamping force may be needeed in some boring or drilling operations.

Greg
 
teflon does dent

and if you use it with the 3 jaw it is adviseable to grip it with soft jaws cut to the diameter of the od of the collet, or to be redundant, make a delrin collet for the teflon, seems crazy but I do like the teflon holding my cue rather than ending up with a dent in a fresh finish.
 
dzcues said:
I know I am one of teflon's proponents but this is something you need to be aware of. While teflon is softer & more forgiving on your finished product, it will dent or slip more easily than delrin, depending on how you use it. Inside a bearing or a 5C or 2J collet - it is wonderful. But a 3 jaw chuck can easily dent the teflon causing repeatability errors later on.

Bob,
You make a great point here and I'll keep that in mind. I usually chamfer and sand the inside of both ends of my collets rounding the corners to reduce the denting. Some of the collets that I use are not slotted, just tapered on the id and I get pretty good results.
Chris

I was wondering, when you using the steady-rest/ assembly, are shoulders on the collets really necessary here?
Chris
 
Poulos Cues said:
Bob,
I was wondering, when you using the steady-rest/ assembly, are shoulders on the collets really necessary here?
Chris
Chris,

Not really, although the thin wall on the larger collets will allow them to be inserted into the bearing unevenly - where the ends of the teflon at the sawcut are misaligned. But as long as you're aware of it, it's a simple matter to correct. That said, some of my larger teflon collets - destined for bearing use only - have shoulders for no reason other than I wasn't thinking when I made them.

The only time I intentionally use a shoulder is when the bore is straight - not tapered. These collets are usually only used in a 5C or 2J collet. The shoulder prevents the teflon collet from pushing through the steel collet. See attached pic.
 

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Rear Chuck

Hey Bubs,
I've been following your endeavor pertaining to the rear chuck for what seems
like several months now. I haven't said anything because first of all I haven't
become a registered user until recently and secondly, I wanted to see what degree
of success you would achieve. Now I'm ready to share some tricks.
First of all, give up the rear chuck idea. It's just not worth the effort or the expense. Let's face it, you're not drilling gun barrels. You're working with wood
and wood by it's very nature is subject to movement, via humidity, temperature, etc.
What you think is DNP now, in a week won't be, guaranteed. Wood is a living, breathing
entity that seems to have a mind of it's own. It's the nature of the beast.
So how do you keep the shaft centered as it hangs out of the back-end of the spindle ? This is so simple you will laugh. Buy a $2 bottle stopper whose diameter, 1/2 way down it's height, is the same as the id of your spindle. Now drill a 1/2" hole in the center of it & stuff it into the back-side of the spindle. Being of rubber,this
will work on shafts from 11mm to 14mm. The more you push it into the spindle, the smaller the center hole will become & visa versa.
OK, so what about the butt of a cue. Well, get out your wallet because this one may cost you another $2 or so. Hydraulic 'O' rings. They come in all different diameters
& thicknesses. Buy a few of different thickness whose od is the same as the id of your spindle & use them as the bushing btwn. the butt & the id of your spindle. They
compress evenly & will hold the butt as centered as anything else will.
Now you're probably thinking 'that's so simple & cheap that it can't possibly work'.
Well, I've been using these little devices for almost 20 yrs. with great success.
Keep it simple & keep your money in your pocket. KJ
 
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