Petition The WPA To Modify 10 Ball Rules Set (Take 2)

[Scottster]

10 Ball (TEXAS EXPRESS STYLE)

1 Determining the Break
2 Ten Ball Rack
3 Legal Break Shot
4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out
5 Continuing Play
6 Spotting Balls
7 Standard Fouls
8 Serious Fouls
9 Stalemate

2. Ten Ball
Ten ball is played with Ten object balls numbered one through 10 and the cue ball. The balls are played in ascending numerical order. The player legally pocketing the 10 ball wins the rack.

2.1 Determining the Break
The player who wins the lag chooses who will break the first rack. (See 1.2 Lagging to Determine Order of Play.)


2.2 10 Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a Triangle shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot, the ten ball in the middle of the triangle and the two and three ball placed on the left and right corners of the triangle. The other balls will be placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern. (See Regulation 4, Racking / Tapping of Balls.)


Ten Ball Rack




2.3 Legal Break Shot
The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) the cue ball begins in hand behind the head string; and
(b) if no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails, or the shot is a foul. (See Regulation 17, Open Break Requirements.)

2.4 If the ten ball is pocketed in one of the 2 corner pockets at the foot of the table, it is respotted on the foot spot after the players inning is over, or he completes pocketing the nine ball.

2.5 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a ?push out? as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.

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2.5 Continuing Play
If the shooter legally pockets any ball on a shot (except a push out, see 2.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out), he continues at the table for the next shot. If he legally pockets the ten ball on any shot (except a push out), he wins the rack. If the shooter fails to pocket a ball or fouls, play passes to the other player, and if no foul was committed, the incoming player must play the cue ball from the position left by the other player.

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2.6 Spotting Balls
If the ten ball is pocketed on a foul or push out, or driven off the table, it is spotted. (See 1.4 Spotting Balls.) No other object ball is ever spotted.



2.7 Standard Fouls
If the shooter commits a standard foul, play passes to his opponent. The cue ball is in hand, and the incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface. (See 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand)

The following are standard fouls at ten ball:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First The first object ball contacted by the cue ball on each shot must be the lowest-numbered ball remaining on the table.
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table The only jumped object ball that is spotted is the ten.
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.15 Slow Play


9. Ten Ball (CURRENT WPA RULES)

9.1 Determining the Break
9.2 Ten Ball Rack
9.3 Legal Break Shot
9.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out
9.5 Shots Required to Be Called
9.6 Continuing Play
9.7 Spotting Balls
9.8 Standard Fouls
9.9 Serious Fouls
9.10 Stalemate

9. Ten Ball
Ten ball is a call shot game played with ten object balls numbered one through ten and the cue ball.
The balls are played in ascending numerical order. The player legally pocketing the ten ball wins the
rack, and this can be achieved on the break shot without calling a ball. Only one ball may be called on
each shot. (See 9.5 Shots Required to be Called).

9.1 Determining the Break
The player who wins the lag chooses who will break the first rack. (See 1.2 Lagging to Determine Order of Play.) The standard format is to alternate the break, but see Regulation 15, Subsequent Break Shots.

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9.2 Ten Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a triangular shape, with the one ball at the apex of
the triangle and on the foot spot and the ten ball in the middle of the triangle. The other balls will be
placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern. (See Regulation 4, Racking / Tapping of Balls.)


Ten Ball Rack


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9.3 Legal Break Shot
The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) the cue ball begins in hand behind the head string; and
(b) if no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails, or the shot is a foul. (See Regulation 17, Open Break Requirements.)
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9.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a ?push out? as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next. The ten ball pocketed during a Push Out is spotted, without penalty.

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9.5 Shots Required to Be Called
On each shot except the break, shots must be called as explained in 1.6 Standard Call Shot. The shooter may call ?safety? in which case play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot and any object ball pocketed on the safety remains pocketed, except the ten ball which must be spotted. (See 8.17 Safety Shot.)

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9.6 Continuing Play
If the shooter legally pockets a called/nominated ball on a shot (except a push out, see 2.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out), any additional balls pocketed remain pocketed (except the ten ball; see 9.7 Spotting Balls), and he continues at the table for the next shot. If he legally pockets the called ten ball on any shot (except a push out), he wins the rack. If the shooter fails to pocket the called ball or fouls, play passes to the other player, and if no foul was committed, the incoming player must play the
cue ball from the position left by the other player.

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9.7 Spotting Balls
If the ten ball is pocketed on a foul or push out, or without calling it, or accidentally in the wrong pocket, or driven off the table, it is spotted. (See 1.4 Spotting Balls.) No other object ball is ever spotted.

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9.8 Standard Fouls
If the shooter commits a standard foul, play passes to his opponent. The cue ball is in hand, and the incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface. (See 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand)

The following are standard fouls at nine ball:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First The first object ball contacted by the cue ball on each shot must be the lowest-numbered ball remaining on the table.
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table The only jumped object ball that is spotted is the nine.
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.15 Slow Play

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9.9 Serious Fouls
For 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, the penalty is loss of the current rack. For 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, the referee will choose a penalty appropriate given the nature of the offense.

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9.10 Stalemate
If a stalemate occurs the original breaker of the rack will break again. (See 1.12 Stalemate.)

 

[FLICKit]

The nice thing about the new format is that it provides a different set of skill options for 10 ball rotation. The WPA style will establish the more skilled call shot approach and remove many of the slop aspects. As opposed to the Texas Express format which would simply be 9 ball with an extra ball. This would provide the pool community with another viable game option to select from. At the same time, for those who just want to play the Texas Express style they can 1. play 9 ball or 2. simply say let's play 10 Ball Texas Express style.

Try it out... Give it time... A little variation can have benefits...
An immediate dismissal can be shortsided and premature...

 

[Scottster]

shameless bump.

 

[Cuebacca]

I voted for the first option, "Texas Express listed below". There are a couple of other rules that weren't listed which I would personally very much like to see implemented. These would be rules #2 and #4 from the Seminole Florida Pro Tour Rules. I think the other rules are a good idea too, so I'll just include them all...

Seminole Florida Pro Tour 10-Ball Rules

10- Ball follows the same rules as Texas Express rules for 9-Ball except for the following differences:

1.) When racking 10-ball, you must put the one ball in front, then the two and the three balls go on each end of the rack, and the ten ball in the middle of the pack.

2.) The ten ball on the break will not count as a win. When you make it on the break, it counts as a ball made on the break so the breaker keeps shooting and it spots up immediately, unless it blocks or bothers you from shooting the next shot. If it blocks or bothers you from the next shot, it will stay down until you finish that shot, then put it on the spot.

3.) You must break within the box. It starts inward one diamond from each corner pocket and up to the second diamond. Four balls must hit a rail, or two balls pocketed. You must contact the one ball first to make a legal break.

4.) Winner racks the balls. Both players may also agree to rack for each other.

5.) The game begins when the cue ball passes the head string. If no contact was made with any balls, the incoming shooter has two options: 1. To break the balls or 2. Have his opponent break again but this time he will be on one foul.

6.) When shooting over an object ball or passed an object ball to get to the cue ball and the cue ball is as close as 1 ? inches or closer, he must not move the object ball in any way or it is a foul.​

Regarding rule #1, I actually don't think it would be a bad idea to to require the standard position for balls 1 and 10, but to allow any rack pattern on balls 2 through 9.

 

[MikeJanis]

The WPA style will establish the more skilled call shot approach and remove many of the slop aspects.

Eght Ah, Nope, nodda, not even remotely true.

I just reffed a match between 2 decent players using the WPA rules.

Here are my observations.

A: Both players on straight in or hangers many times did not CALL the shot so I had to award the opponent the next shot. This was a problem during the entire 2 sets.

B: SLOP does not go away. You could say its the same or an even amount but it is very different and much more frustrating with the new WPA rules. Let me explain the most common situation that came into play.. When player A played a safety whether making a ball or not player B would come to the table and usually have to kick. Many times player B made a legal hit but slopped another ball in or the OB in the wrong pocket. Now it becomes player A's turn. Player A now had more times than not the worste possible position on the next ball and is forced to have to shoot (Player A didn't do anything wrong but he got punished many times for this). Both players found this very discouraging.
NOTE: I kept waiting for the opponent to say "I heard him call that shot" just so he didn't have to shoot the next shot. I am pretty sure this situation or arguements whether the shot was called or not will come up time and time again in tournaments. This will be a real pain for any TD if there is not a ref at each table. ( For those in the know, this is something the legendary Mr. Jack Hines would have pulled over and over again in tournaments. )


C: Making a ball and playing safe. This rule was used more than I thought it should have been because both players were playing real hard against each other. The result of this was many boooooooring games with no action. I think saw more 3 foul attempts in 2 races to 11 than I have seen in entire 100 player tournaments. It was slow and did I mention BOOOOORING !
D: Well D is actually a good thing. The only good thing as far as I can tell. It was a litle exciting when a player called a tough shot like a kick of 1/2 ball carom and actually made the difficult shot as predicted. However, whether or not the shot is called most players and fans know what the players is trying most of the time anyway so for the most part this rule still stinks.

E: Most 2 way shots completely disappeared. The players would mainly focus on the 1 ball they knew they could make for sure and very rarely attempted 2 ways. Talk about BOOOOORING.


WPA, please, I beg you to reconsider the rules.


Based on what I witnessed and what I perceive to be real problems with call shots during tournaments. I can state for a fact that I will not be holding any 10-ball events using WPA rules anytime in the near future.




Mj

 

[MikeJanis]

Has anybody else tried playing sets of 10-ball under the new WPA rules and if so please describe your results.

Thanks, Mj

 

[FLICKit]

A: Both players on straight in or hangers many times did not CALL the shot so I had to award the opponent the next shot. This was a problem during the entire 2 sets.

BCA and other leagues have had call pocket for their leagues and for their tournaments for years (be it 8 ball or whatever) and they don't have any problem handling straight in or hangers...
Generally every shot goes in favor of the shooter, unless they explicitly call safety or if it's a wild and unusual shot, then they call ball and pocket.
Seems like that has always been pretty simple to handle and works well.

 

[MikeJanis]

BCA and other leagues have had call pocket for their leagues and for their tournaments for years (be it 8 ball or whatever) and they don't have any problem handling straight in or hangers...
Generally every shot goes in favor of the shooter, unless they explicitly call safety or if it's a wild and unusual shot, then they call ball and pocket.
Seems like that has always been pretty simple to handle and works well.

In league play with 8-10 people standing around the play table this usually isn't a problem. Also many times the players will agree before the match that this is OK but on the other hand in tournament play it is and can be a very serious problem. Heck, I have seen TV matches with this exact same situation go very bad for some players because they did not call a straight in shot.

As a TD/ Ref the problem comes in when 2 players have an argument at the table about whether a shot was called or not. Now as a Ref I usually have to stick around and babysit the players during the match as a result of this. When this happens on 3, 4, 5 or more tables all at the same time it becomes and impossibility for me to effectively ref all the matches. Unfortiunately I nor most of my coleagues do not have the budget to hire Refs for every table.

I am speaking from 1st hand knowledge as a Ref/TD of many tournaments. This has been a severe situation at times in many 8-ball singles tournaments in the past. It is just one of the reasons I now only run maybe 1 8-ball event per year.

Mj


Mj

 

[Cuebacca]

In league play with 8-10 people standing around the play table this usually isn't a problem. Also many time the players will agree befor the match that this is OK but on the other hand in tournament play it is and can be a very serious problem. Heck, I have seen TV matches with this exact same situation go very bad for some players because they did not call a straight in shot.


Mj

This is actually pretty surprising. I totally agree with you 100% about call shot being a bad rule for rotation, but I'm surprised about the problem with obvious shots. Doesn't it state in the rules that obvious shots need not be called, or something to this effect? If so, couldn't it be considered unsportsmanlike conduct for someone to moan about a straight-in shot after the fact, and act like they had no idea that the guy was shooting a hanger?

 

[MikeJanis]

Doesn't it state in the rules that obvious shots need not be called, or something to this effect?

That is correct:

1.6 Standard Call Shot
In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.
For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.
In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call ?safety? instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game.


However, when there is no Ref at each table who is responsible to determine whether or not it is "obvious". It is definately a rule that is open to suggestion and not absolutely clear.

How about this one. The 10-Ball is in the jaws of the pocket and the shooter appears to line up for the combo. He/She shoots the 2 straight at the 10-ball hanging in the pocket but the 2 slips past the 10 and goes in. The shooter did not call a ball because it seemed obvious to everyone that he was playing the 10 but the 10 didn't fall. His opponent states the shooter did not call a shot. The shooter states It was obvious that he was calling the 2 ball because he shot it at the pocket.

Mj

 

[Cuebacca]

That is correct:

1.6 Standard Call Shot
In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.
For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.
In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call ?safety? instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game.


However, when there is no Ref at each table who is responsible to determine whether or not it is "obvious". It is definately a rule that is open to suggestion and not absolutely clear.

How about this one. The 10-Ball is in the jaws of the pocket and the shooter appears to line up for the combo. He/She shoots the 2 straight at the 10-ball hanging in the pocket but the 2 slips past the 10 and goes in. The shooter did not call a ball because it seemed obvious to everyone that he was playing the 10 but the 10 didn't fall. His opponent states the shooter did not call a shot. The shooter states It was obvious that he was calling the 2 ball because he shot it at the pocket.

Mj

When these situations come up in games like 8-ball, I always call the shot (ball and pocket) on combos, caroms, and banks. Basically, this follows the guideline that the rulebook establishes as shots that may have "a chance for confusion".

Perhaps one way around it would be to state that it is up to the seated player to ask the shooter for clarification if there is any doubt before the shot, and that after the shot it's too late. Otherwise it is assumed that the open shot to the pocket is the implied shot. ie, if a 1-10 combo is played, but not called, it's considered slop, period.

No wait, scratch that. I have an idea that is going to put that one to shame... How about making it a non-call shot game where slop always counts?

 

[Vahmurka]

How about this one. ... His opponent states the shooter did not call a shot. The shooter states It was obvious that he was calling the 2 ball because he shot it at the pocket.

from my experience, obvious shots are only the shots which involve only one object ball. I mean the player should well realize all the possibilities like you described and take care to call such a shot with an uncertain outcome. (while I was typing that Cuebacca replied similar)

I'm going to try WPA 10-ball rules, both original and modified (a - if a ball pocketed on a safety, opponent may return the table to the shooter; b - pocketing a ball on a safety is not allowed). Will report our feelings later.

 

[Vahmurka]

I'm going to try WPA 10-ball rules ... Will report our feelings later.

well, here I am with some experience. Actually not very much to add to what Mike Janis said. In later stages of each rack with only few balls left the game looks pretty much like common 10-ball or 9-ball. But in general it is not very interesting.

First of all I had to remind my opponent that we are trying new WPA rules with safeties possible, as he always kept trying to play attacking and trying crazy position routes - just like he is used to do. Second, he always forgot making a call, regardless of whether it was an uncertain pocket to shoot at or a combination/carom.

The game loses creativity A LOT. There is no need to use your imagination and plan in advance - if anythin goes wrong you can always duck behind a ball nearby sending an object ball to the pocket. I won a rack easily that way, making a ball on the break and then playing dead safe on the 2 (pocketing the yellow). After that with ball in hand the rest was as easy as stealing a candy from a baby. And I wasn't happy at all winning the rack in such a style.

Call shot game is not very bad until the opponent of the shooter who slopped a ball has to shoot from an awkward position, like it was mentioned before. Thus he is punished for no reason, so if they decide to leave it a call shot game, it is important to entitle the shooter's opponent the right to return the table to the shooter after a miscalled shot. Either the player accepts the position or returns it to the shooter. (Though I would prefer leaving 10-ball without call shots, just like 9-ball - I don't think there are too many slop shots compared to other ones. Call shots don't eliminate luck factor from the game, still occasional safeties are possible - either after a miss or miscalled shot when incoming player has to shoot from being snookered.)

And pocketing a ball on a safety is unacceptable, it diminishes skill requirements. In rotation games you need to control two balls on a safety, cueball and object ball, so please leave it like that.
Personally I think WPA shouldn't wait a year to make corrections to new 10-ball rules but do them as soon as possible coming out with another edition, taking into account our research here at AZB forum.