Phenolic fad...!

tjlmbklr

tjlmbklr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Phenolic fad...!

Ok Phenolic is the sh*t I know this because I trust what my fellow posters say. This is why I am here, for advice. So, I know that the discussion of what is better "lighter or heavier for breaking" has been tossed around quite a bit so here, we go again. Well with the added power due to the Phenolic craze, can (should) a heavier cue be used as apposed to a lighter (for speed)? The reason I ask is I am still learning control, trust me I have had my share of mis-cues on the break, and I am aware that with the Phenolic tips it is imperative to get a controlled center ball hit on the break. I have always gone lighter on most of my break cue for speed. Now keep in mind I yet to experience Phenolic in all its glory; once again I trust all of your opinions. So I guess I'll get to the point I want as powerful of a break with little effort, and to be able to control the tips impact on the cue when I release. I have read previous post on all different types of break cues on the market and decided to go with a middle of the road (price wise) and found the FURY J/B is where I stand for my decision. Ebay has a ton for sale. I am not sure what weight to go with. Also keep in mind that in the past I have always done what I like to refer as " Cue demotion" when I buy a new playing cue I demote the old one to my Break cue and usually just have the local billiard shop put a hard leather tip on it. So as you can see I am looking forward to trying something different.

Any useful advice would be appreciated.
 
at this point, imo leather breaks better

i think if you are looking at finding a good break cue you should look for something with a hard leather tip. there was a thread recently discussing how you can get more cb control if the tip is in contact with the cueball longer. this hasn't been proven yet in my eyes, but i think its true. thus, a leather tip is a better choice imo (as they will obviously have longer contact times with the cb). i say this becasue it makes sense to me physically, and i experience it on the table.

for example, i compared a stinger to my gilbert (stinger was phenolic, gilbert leather), the gilbert was superior in every way in my opinion when breaking. felt better, with better control.

now, when you throw jumping into the equation, it gets tougher. phenolic jumps so superior, everyone knows this. i just differ and think phenolic doesnt break superior.

as for weight, i go about .5 oz under my playing cue weight, that has always felt good to me. its lighter, but doesn't feel so much lighter its foreign"

good luck, try things out. my recent revelation: buy everything, hit with and compare them, keep them all in good shape, and sell what you dont want. you can usually get your money back for all purchases, maybe a little under.
 
I have a J&J I think it is..( breaker I bought on ebay cheap... ) it has a phelonic ferrule/tip (the one piece kind. I use the same weight as my playing cue. 19 oz.

I found that if i want follow or draw on the break.. (depending on how I feel) That half a cue tip is enough. anymore then that and the ball is leaving the table. The power is wonderful if you can tame it though..

I used to use a hard leather tip to break.. I can break well with that but no where as hard as with the phelonic. Honestly in 8 ball I tend to use a house cue to break. In 9.. only my phelonic. The 9 really gets moving.
 
I go back and forth between a phenolic tip for breaking or just a hard leather tip. Most of the time, the hard leather tip works better for me. It's just too easy to lose control with the phenolic, IMHO. For instance, if I want to stroke on the break off center by a tip or so, the phenolic becomes exceedingly difficult to control: miscues become a real danger; the squirt for whatever reason is much larger, and the ball tends more easily to leave the table, or tear crazily around the table unless I actually manage to get it to hit the one ball squarely (when breaking with off center english). For these reasons, I almost always now use a Talisman Pro Hard Pigskin for breaking, having foregone the Talisman Break tip.

The advantages of using a leather tip in terms of control are simply superior, IMHO.

Flex
 
I'm not a fan of phenolic use on Break Cues, because there are some break shots that require some spin on the Cue Ball. I'm not a fan of Jump/Break Cues either, because I like specific tools for specific jobs.

I like a 19 oz Break Cue & I play with a 19 oz Play Cue. Great speed isn't the key to success in the Break Shot, Accuracy & Contol of Whitey are the keys to success in this arena.

Each time we've had Break Shot Contests, we notice a pattern. We start out with moderate speed & Cue Ball control as the criteria for winning the contest. The players all do fairly well. As soon as we break out the Radar Gun... all hell breaks loose & anyone within range is susceptible to being hit with a flying Cue Ball.

Good Luck...
 
ceebee said:
I'm not a fan of phenolic use on Break Cues, because there are some break shots that require some spin on the Cue Ball. I'm not a fan of Jump/Break Cues either, because I like specific tools for specific jobs.

I like a 19 oz Break Cue & I play with a 19 oz Play Cue. Great speed isn't the key to success in the Break Shot, Accuracy & Contol of Whitey are the keys to success in this arena.

Each time we've had Break Shot Contests, we notice a pattern. We start out with moderate speed & Cue Ball control as the criteria for winning the contest. The players all do fairly well. As soon as we break out the Radar Gun... all hell breaks loose & anyone within range is susceptible to being hit with a flying Cue Ball.

Good Luck...
Click to expand...

Hey cuebee, your reply looks as familiar as my post, LOL
 
tjlmbklr said:
Phenolic fad...!

Ok Phenolic is the sh*t I know this because I trust what my fellow posters say. This is why I am here, for advice. So, I know that the discussion of what is better "lighter or heavier for breaking" has been tossed around quite a bit so here, we go again. Well with the added power due to the Phenolic craze, can (should) a heavier cue be used as apposed to a lighter (for speed)? The reason I ask is I am still learning control, trust me I have had my share of mis-cues on the break, and I am aware that with the Phenolic tips it is imperative to get a controlled center ball hit on the break. I have always gone lighter on most of my break cue for speed. Now keep in mind I yet to experience Phenolic in all its glory; once again I trust all of your opinions. So I guess I'll get to the point I want as powerful of a break with little effort, and to be able to control the tips impact on the cue when I release. I have read previous post on all different types of break cues on the market and decided to go with a middle of the road (price wise) and found the FURY J/B is where I stand for my decision. Ebay has a ton for sale. I am not sure what weight to go with. Also keep in mind that in the past I have always done what I like to refer as " Cue demotion" when I buy a new playing cue I demote the old one to my Break cue and usually just have the local billiard shop put a hard leather tip on it. So as you can see I am looking forward to trying something different.

Any useful advice would be appreciated.
Click to expand...


I love the phenolic tip on my breaking cue.. If you are looking for the hardest hit with the least effort that is the way to go. As far as weight is concerned experiment a bit. The fury cues use a weight bolt system its very easy to go from a 18 to a 21 and back by simply changing out the bolts. Hit with diffrent weights bolts in it and when you find the weight you like best stick with it.
 
I estimate it will take me less than a minute to hack the phenolic tip off my jump/break cue and replace it with a triangle the day I come home with a new jump cue with phenolic tip.

In the mean time, I don't really find much of a difference breaking with a phenolic tip as opposed to a leather tip, except that it keeps me from letting my stroke get out of control on the break, and perhaps that's a good thing.
 
supergreenman said:
I estimate it will take me less than a minute to hack the phenolic tip off my jump/break cue and replace it with a triangle the day I come home with a new jump cue with phenolic tip.

In the mean time, I don't really find much of a difference breaking with a phenolic tip as opposed to a leather tip, except that it keeps me from letting my stroke get out of control on the break, and perhaps that's a good thing.
Click to expand...

i agree...phenolic tip 18 ounce break cue is what i use. 18 keeps my speed up, phenolic keeps me from letting it all hang out.
 
I just had a Phenolic ferrule/tip combo put on my Action SP that i use for breaking. I also added weight to the cue too, which brought it up from 18oz to about 21oz's.

The first nite of practicing with my break cue being changed was amazing.

I could break just as hard as before when the cue just had a layer'd tip and was 18oz's, and was keeping the CB in the center of the table.

When i was practicing, breaking, i was hitting the CB, about a 1/2 tip above center ball, that way the CB when it comes off the 1ball, would comeback out to the center of the table and stop.

I did experiment with breaking from different area's on the table, and with different types of english, mainly it being nothing more than a 1/2 tip in any direction on the CB.

But its all personaly preference i guess, on what someone likes.

dave
 
I don't really think what cue you use makes a lot of difference. It's whatever you like the feel of, or get used to IMO. What will make a huge difference is what CeeBee referred to, and that's control!

Sorry to get off topic, but...
I taught MANY players who were much stronger than me, how to break. I worked in a few pool rooms, and when they were slow, I would work on perfecting my break for hours. I had a huge advantage from knowing how break and adjust on any given table. How to arrange the balls in the rack for the best results, slow break, cut break, power break etc. (not slug racking!)

The one CONSTANT in my whole 3 year study was by reducing speed/velocity in the beginning, and increasing your accuracy/ hit on the 1 ball, EVER player I worked with had huge improvement and better results. After getting rid of the "I need to pound the hell outta them" mentality, and thinking about cue ball placement after the break, and wheres the 1 ball going if it's missing the side pocket, the break became another shot to play position on, just like any other. It's all about percentages and control really....

That's all I have to say about that!:D

Gerry
 
power

on the break topic, this post may be a little dense but here are the facts:

power = work/time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_work)

this translates to the power you get on the break is equal to the work (or force X displacement distance) divided by the time the tip is in contact with the cueball.

if you don't care to figure all this out yourself, it means the shorter amount of time the tip is in contact with the cueball the more power you will get.

Anybody who says (i wont even name names here):

"This new material will filter out unwanted vibration, and recoil upon impact to keep the tip on the cue ball longer to increase power and a straighter cue delivery."

is either lying or is unknowingly making false statements. either one of these is not ok in my book if your gonna spend a lot of money on a cue. the fact that the product is good or bad is really unimportant, the fact that we are being lied to or misled is important. unfortunately, this was just one of many false or unsubstanciated statements made by this particular marketer. consumers should protect eachother and call these marketers out when they make false and/or unsubstanciated statements.

fact: longer tip in contact with cueball time = less power

in english, all this means a phenolic tip gives more power and a leather tip gives less. but, imo, the more power you get, the less contol (contact time) you'll have.
 
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Notice when the phenolic fad was in top form, everyone said that they break better with phenolic. Now that it's over and people are going back to hard leather tips, what does that tell you? The tip/cue is not as relevant as the break stroke itself. I think timing is the most critical factor in having a good break, JMHO.
 
My observations ...

With a leather tipped Sneaky Pete I used for breaking, and I break hard
for a little guy (was told several times I break as hard as anyone in town),
I still suffered some from cueball position after the break, and sometimes,
the balls would not go down on the break, no matter how I switched up
the break.

Since I have had the J&J break/jump cue with 1/2" phenolic ferrule/tip, I am
getting a lot more action, and have adjusted my power down for more control, but the rack explodes when I hit it, like it did back when I was 25 or 30 (I am 58 now). I might also note that the shaft and tip is 14mm, and I
believe this also plays a part of it breaking good.

I bought the J&J because a player/friend/adversay in Pool of mine had one
originally, and he seems to get powerful breaks, and he was proficient with it on jump shots, which were a problem for me when I played him in money matches or tournaments.

He got rid of all of his cues, then a couplo of months later, bought all new cues. He now has an Action Break/jump cue and a new Bunjee break/jump
cue. His performance level for breaking and jumping has dropped off
considerably.

I played him a set to 7 the other night, and he won, mostly becuase of my shooting, not his (only 4th time out all winter), BUT he only made balls off the break 1 time, and he only made 1 jump shot out of about 5 or 6 all
set. In contrast, I made balls off the break 4 out of 5 times with the J&J,
and only made 1 jump shot out of about 6 (but got good hits on all, cueball went off table on 1 though). My balls off the break were GETTING ACTION, his didn't seem to (and he breaks hard, soft broke 1 time).
Several times, I had 6 or 7 balls past the side pockets after the break.
I have to be careful how I cue the phenolic tip when breaking, but for
me, it has taken 30 years of aging off my break, and the racks are
once again popping when I hit them, JMHO.

added note on jumping: I have not practiced with jump shots with the phenolic tip because our rooms do not allow practicing jump shots (except 2 times a year, the week before recovering the tables), and I am having
a problem sometimes of jumping too far with it, and am still learning to
lighten up my touch with it, but it lifts the cue well, and I can now jump
closer than I ever could before.
 
Snapshot9 said:
With a leather tipped Sneaky Pete I used for breaking, and I break hard
for a little guy (was told several times I break as hard as anyone in town),
I still suffered some from cueball position after the break, and sometimes,
the balls would not go down on the break, no matter how I switched up
the break.

Since I have had the J&J break/jump cue with 1/2" phenolic ferrule/tip, I am
getting a lot more action, and have adjusted my power down for more control, but the rack explodes when I hit it, like it did back when I was 25 or 30 (I am 58 now). I might also note that the shaft and tip is 14mm, and I
believe this also plays a part of it breaking good.

I bought the J&J because a player/friend/adversay in Pool of mine had one
originally, and he seems to get powerful breaks, and he was proficient with it on jump shots, which were a problem for me when I played him in money matches or tournaments.

He got rid of all of his cues, then a couplo of months later, bought all new cues. He now has an Action Break/jump cue and a new Bunjee break/jump
cue. His performance level for breaking and jumping has dropped off
considerably.

I played him a set to 7 the other night, and he won, mostly becuase of my shooting, not his (only 4th time out all winter), BUT he only made balls off the break 1 time, and he only made 1 jump shot out of about 5 or 6 all
set. In contrast, I made balls off the break 4 out of 5 times with the J&J,
and only made 1 jump shot out of about 6 (but got good hits on all, cueball went off table on 1 though). My balls off the break were GETTING ACTION, his didn't seem to (and he breaks hard, soft broke 1 time).
Several times, I had 6 or 7 balls past the side pockets after the break.
I have to be careful how I cue the phenolic tip when breaking, but for
me, it has taken 30 years of aging off my break, and the racks are
once again popping when I hit them, JMHO.

added note on jumping: I have not practiced with jump shots with the phenolic tip because our rooms do not allow practicing jump shots (except 2 times a year, the week before recovering the tables), and I am having
a problem sometimes of jumping too far with it, and am still learning to
lighten up my touch with it, but it lifts the cue well, and I can now jump
closer than I ever could before.
Click to expand...

I've seen players break at 15-20 mph and get 6 or 7 balls past the side pocket consistently. That depends more on the rack than anything. I've seen Bustamante use his top speed on the break and get little action because the rack was obviously bad. After that he started checking the back balls instead of just the first three, and he went back to making 3 balls every time lol..
 
we finally agree

cuetechasaurus said:
Notice when the phenolic fad was in top form, everyone said that they break better with phenolic. Now that it's over and people are going back to hard leather tips, what does that tell you? The tip/cue is not as relevant as the break stroke itself. I think timing is the most critical factor in having a good break, JMHO.
Click to expand...

the fad comment is a good one. i think when things initially come out they are different and people are more apt to like them. yes, of course the most important factor is your stroke, not the cue. thats why i hate these claims like our cue "gives you a straighter cue delivery" or "more power." its really just all crap imho.
 
I just a hard leather tip for the break, and like the feel that it gives. I feel in more control, and always more confident with the hit than phenolic tip. I find myself getting more snap with a phenolic tip, but i still am apprehensive when approaching the shot. I guess I just need to get used it.

Does anyone know what kind of tip the XBreakers have? I never got to use one those things and curious to know what it is like?
 
enzo: I think you’ve misunderstood the problem. The object isn’t to get more power; the object is to do more work. If power equals work divided by time, then work equals power times time--so you do more work if you push longer. Consider the problem of launching the Space Shuttle into orbit: you don’t cut the engines until you’ve accelerated the thing to the target velocity.
 
Captain said:
The object isn’t to get more power; the object is to do more work. If power equals work divided by time, then work equals power times time--so you do more work if you push longer. Consider the problem of launching the Space Shuttle into orbit: you don’t cut the engines until you’ve accelerated the thing to the target velocity.
Click to expand...
Captain, you are right.

Work Done = Force times Distance, it is a measure of how much energy is transferred.

To have more "work done" is the objective here with regard to the break.

Therefore, in layman's term, the longer you push, the more work is done, more energy is transferred.

Power is a measure of the rate energy is transferred.

When the tip compresses more upon impact, it does not mean it will "push" the ball longer. It is because the compressed tip may not recoil fast enough to continue the "push" on the ball after the tip is compressed.

So, a leather tip will not result in more energy transferred to the cue ball when compared to a phenolic tip.

I would like to look at this problem in terms of the elasticity of the collision between the tip and the cue ball. There is no perfectly elastic collision in real life, either is there any perfectly inelastic one.

If a collision is perfectly elastic, momentum is perfectly conserved, which means, m(cue) v(cue) = M(cue ball) V (cue ball)

m(cue)= mass of the cue
v(cue)= velocity of the cue
M(cue ball)= mass of the cue ball
V(cue ball)=velocity of the cue ball

In which case, kinetic energy is also completely conserved and transferred.

There is no such a collison in real life, there will always be energy lost. But a "harder"(a tip which does not compress as much upon impact) tip will result in a more elastic collision than a softer tip.

The benefit of a tip with high compressive strength is that it will result in a more elastic collision, hence higher velocity on the cue ball after the collision.

This is why a "harder" tip will creat more "power" in a break cue.

Power is the rate of energy transfer, and it is higher when more energy is transfered within a shorter period of time. But this is not to be confused with the contact time that the cue stays in contact with the cue ball.

If two cues are put to test, both with the same tip with the same compressive strength, the cue which can stay in contact longer with the cue ball will produce more "work done", therefore more energy will be transferred. In layman's term, it will result in a more powerful break.

It is possible to produce a cue which can stay in contact with the ball longer, to achieve a "bigger" work done.

So, in my opinion, a tip with high compressive strength, being put on a cue which allows more work done on the cue ball, will result in more energy transferred to the cue ball, hence a higher cue ball velocity. (provided constant energy lost)

With regard to energy lost, we notice that most phenolic tips are very loud, which results in sound energy lost. A lot of them do not process a very high compressive strength (only up to 50,000 psi); therefore, energy is also lost in the inelastic collision between the tip and the cue ball. Some phenolic tips melt when they are rubbed on the table, which is another form of energy lost(heat, compression of the tip)...etc.

Someone asked what the X Breaker tip is made of, the Xtreme tip is made of a material which offers over 65,000 psi in compressive strength, and it does not melt upon friction. Besides, it does not emit as loud a sound as phenolic tips. We tried to offer a collison which is as close to perfectly elastic as possible, at the same time, we also want to have more work done on the cue ball by installing our patented energy maXimizer on the butt end to allow the cue to stay in contact with (or to push as some may like to say) the cue ball longer.

Richard

PS. The difference between a leather tip and a phenolic tip is like trying to use a wood hammer vs a steel hammer. The former might offer you less power but more feel, while the latter offers you more power but less feel. The former one is also more forgiving.
We believe this problem can be rectified and a compromise can be reached whereas a player can have the feel of a wood hammer and the power of a steel hammer.

What if you can have a steel hammer which will stay on the nail longer than other steel hammers?
 
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