Placing the CB with Ball-In-Hand

krupa

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
I was reading the "rules of thumb" thread and Bob Jewett (sp?) was credited with one about not placing the cue ball for a draw shot when you have ball in hand.

As with all "rules of thumb" you don't always apply it and I have a tendency to *never* apply it. So are there any guidelines for determining when to apply the rule?

Thanks
-matthew
 
krupa said:
I was reading the "rules of thumb" thread and Bob Jewett (sp?) was credited with one about not placing the cue ball for a draw shot when you have ball in hand.

As with all "rules of thumb" you don't always apply it and I have a tendency to *never* apply it. So are there any guidelines for determining when to apply the rule?

Thanks
-matthew
Click to expand...

First look to see if top spin or stun will get you where you need to go. If you see no options there, then look at your draw options. In most cases you won't need to use the third option.
 
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I'm not an instructor.

It has always been my experience to GO with the shot. In other words use follow if possible, its natural to roll the cue ball rather than force the cue ball.

But like Fran says, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. :)

John
 
Thanks for the replies. I assume the reason is that stun or follow are easier to control than draw?

(I seem to have better control with draw over short distances than stun or follow.)
 
I like to say it like this “If your inclination is to draw with ball in hand you’re probably doing something wrong”. The rule of thumb is there because it’s harder to place the CB where you want it. You can try this yourself; try to follow the CB 1ft, 2ft, 3ft 10 times each and then try and draw back 1ft, 2ft and 3ft 10 times. You will find that the on average you can judge the follow much more precisely. Then do the same thing at a couple of angles. This will convince you that drawing with BIH isn’t “usually” the way to go.

But the draw with BIH comes up all the time for various reasons. Lets say you have BIH the money ball is frozen 2 diamonds away from the corner on the long rail and your last OB is frozen 1 diamond away from the opposite corner; what are you going to do? Are you going to go around 3 rails? Do a stop shot? Well of course not; you will probably just draw back off the rail a couple of feet. If you draw back 3ft your fine, if you draw back 1ft; you’re also just fine.

Like all blanket rules there are always exceptions and when you are about to break one it is always just fine as long as there is a good reason for it. If you are saying just because “I feel that’s the right shot” or “the shot I want to take” the chances are you are not taking “the best” shot. It isn’t necessarily a blunder. This blanket rule is there because there are a lot of players that feel they can judge draw better than follow, 99.99% of the time these players just haven’t done something like the little test above. You can do something like try to draw the CB in a straight line and then try to follow the CB in a straight line. You will find that you can follow in a straighter line.
 
Placing the CB with Ball-in-hand

I think the overarching principle is to do what ever is easiest. In most cases that is just rolling the ball, which is what everyone is saying.

Where I see this come up is when the object ball is near a pocket, and a lot of players play the object ball to the closes pocket and use draw. What they never seem to see is playing the object ball to another pocket and rolling the cue ball where you need it to go.

Hope that helps.
 
PGHteacher said:
I like to say it like this “If your inclination is to draw with ball in hand you’re probably doing something wrong”. The rule of thumb is there because it’s harder to place the CB where you want it. You can try this yourself; try to follow the CB 1ft, 2ft, 3ft 10 times each and then try and draw back 1ft, 2ft and 3ft 10 times. You will find that the on average you can judge the follow much more precisely. Then do the same thing at a couple of angles. This will convince you that drawing with BIH isn’t “usually” the way to go.

But the draw with BIH comes up all the time for various reasons. Lets say you have BIH the money ball is frozen 2 diamonds away from the corner on the long rail and your last OB is frozen 1 diamond away from the opposite corner; what are you going to do? Are you going to go around 3 rails? Do a stop shot? Well of course not; you will probably just draw back off the rail a couple of feet. If you draw back 3ft your fine, if you draw back 1ft; you’re also just fine.

Like all blanket rules there are always exceptions and when you are about to break one it is always just fine as long as there is a good reason for it. If you are saying just because “I feel that’s the right shot” or “the shot I want to take” the chances are you are not taking “the best” shot. It isn’t necessarily a blunder. This blanket rule is there because there are a lot of players that feel they can judge draw better than follow, 99.99% of the time these players just haven’t done something like the little test above. You can do something like try to draw the CB in a straight line and then try to follow the CB in a straight line. You will find that you can follow in a straighter line.
Click to expand...

That "test" sounds like a great idea. I'm going to try it. Thanks.
 
mfinkelstein3 said:
I think the overarching principle is to do what ever is easiest. In most cases that is just rolling the ball, which is what everyone is saying.

Where I see this come up is when the object ball is near a pocket, and a lot of players play the object ball to the closes pocket and use draw. What they never seem to see is playing the object ball to another pocket and rolling the cue ball where you need it to go.

Hope that helps.
Click to expand...

I had a situation come up like this in a game last week. I had ball in hand, and one object ball left, and the 8 ball. The object ball and 8 ball were a few inches apart and almost parallel to each other, about 18" from a corner pocket. I placed the cue ball behind my object ball and played it into the corner, and intended to draw the cue back, and a little to the right, to have perfect position on the 8. The OB went in, the cue ball came back, but... it didn't come back to where I wanted it to. I left myself with an almost impossible shot on the 8, instead of the nice easy one I envisioned. I wound up having to play a defensive shot. So... using draw on BIN, which I thought was the right thing to do, almost cost me the game. Obviously, it's because I didn't execute the shot correctly, even though I thought it would be easy to do. Had I done what has been recommended by others in this discussion, and use follow, I could have played the OB to the opposite corner and let the ball follow to a nice easy spot behind the 8 for the nearest corner.

Personally, I love using draw. But I'm just not good enough (yet???) to make it work the way I want it to all the time.

What to use and when to use it is always a judgement call, but rules of thumb exist for a reason.
 
My main concern with draw attempts is in the possible miscue. Anyone can miscue and it happens more than you think, regardless of how confident you are in your game or how proficient you are.

Once in a WPBA tournament, I was hill hill with a well respected player. I scratched on the final 9 - ball. For whatever reason, with bih, she placed the cb in front of the 9 and hit a draw shot. She miscued and the cb jumped over the 9 for a foul giving me back bih.
 
Lou Bones said:
That "test" sounds like a great idea. I'm going to try it. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The important thing to remember is the “on average” part of what I said. You have to have a big base to do a good comparison. The better a player you are the more stringent the test has to be (but if you are really good you don’t need to do this test, you know this already). There are a hundred tests you could do; try this, 25x each. Put the CB 3 diamonds away from a rail and then draw it back and try to freeze it on the rail, leave it within a chalks width, a balls width or 2 balls width. Then try the same thing with follow (remember to put the CB 3 diamonds away NOT the OB). I will bet my last dollar that you will come to the conclusion that your CB control stinks with draw compared to your control with follow.
 
Thank you again for all of the input.

I understand what the rule means and how to apply it. I just have to practice fundamentals and progressive drills.

Wednesday night I tried applying this rule. Playing 8-ball, I got BIH with one solid left before the eight ball. I could put my OB in the side with a few inches of draw or the corner with a few inches (plus a couple more for the diameter of the OB) of follow. I chose follow and belted the flipping CB 3 times farther than it needed to go, effectively leaving no shot on the 8. Luckily my opponent missed his next shot, leaving me a makable shot on the 8.
 
PGHteacher said:
I like to say it like this “If your inclination is to draw with ball in hand you’re probably doing something wrong”. The rule of thumb is there because it’s harder to place the CB where you want it. You can try this yourself; try to follow the CB 1ft, 2ft, 3ft 10 times each and then try and draw back 1ft, 2ft and 3ft 10 times. You will find that the on average you can judge the follow much more precisely. Then do the same thing at a couple of angles. This will convince you that drawing with BIH isn’t “usually” the way to go.

But the draw with BIH comes up all the time for various reasons. Lets say you have BIH the money ball is frozen 2 diamonds away from the corner on the long rail and your last OB is frozen 1 diamond away from the opposite corner; what are you going to do? Are you going to go around 3 rails? Do a stop shot? Well of course not; you will probably just draw back off the rail a couple of feet. If you draw back 3ft your fine, if you draw back 1ft; you’re also just fine.

Like all blanket rules there are always exceptions and when you are about to break one it is always just fine as long as there is a good reason for it. If you are saying just because “I feel that’s the right shot” or “the shot I want to take” the chances are you are not taking “the best” shot. It isn’t necessarily a blunder. This blanket rule is there because there are a lot of players that feel they can judge draw better than follow, 99.99% of the time these players just haven’t done something like the little test above. You can do something like try to draw the CB in a straight line and then try to follow the CB in a straight line. You will find that you can follow in a straighter line.
Click to expand...

This to me is a perfect answer, because a lot of people mistakenly believe draw is just as easy to control as follow.
On the other hand, some people, like me, lately practice draw much more than follow, so we are perhaps more comfortable using draw on BIH. That still doesnt mean draw is easier to control, it just means our follow skills are poor and under-practiced.

(NOT INSTRUCTOR)
 
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