Points Tourney

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
I've been throwing an idea around for a few days, having to do with pool tournaments and the deficiencies of their format. I'm namely speaking of smaller local tournaments that bars and pool halls host.

As long as I can remember, pool tournaments always follow the same basic format: either single or double elimination brackets, narrowing the field until one player is left standing. The problems I see with this format:

*) Lesser skilled players are deterred from playing because they lose two matches and they are quickly ousted from the tourney. They got very little enjoyment for their money.

*) As the tournament progresses, the number of players is (basically) halved upon each match. This ends up in players (losers) leaving in droves, with the last couple of hours consisting only of one table and the last 2-3 players.

*) Tournaments can be quite lengthy, 6-8 hours is not uncommon. Many potential players may not show up knowing they will kill the entire day playing.

So, how to fix these problems? How about a tournament format that accomplishes the following:

*) All players who enter play the entire tournament. Every player plays the same number of matches and games.

This gives everyone incentive to play. They will enjoy their time playing, and this makes efficient use of the tables for the entire tournament. Establishments will also be happy to see all the players sticking around the entire time.

*) Tournament directors can be quite precise on the length of the tournament. They can confidently advertise the tournament will take approximately X hours.

By choosing the numer of matches and the games (predicted by the number of entries and number of tables available) a tournament director can accurately control the length of the tournament. This also be handy to safely run tournaments back to back in a single day.

*) built-in rating system, the matches adjust in a weighted round-robin format, giving everyone (at any skill level) at least a chance in making the money.

This can be optional, it helps even the field. Each match is determined by the players accumulated score cards.

So now onto the game format. I have only done this on paper so far, so feel free to contribute thoughts/ideas!

Basically, the game is based on point accumulation instead of match wins. For instance: a 9-ball tournament. Each match consists of 3 games of 9-ball. Each ball is worth a point, and the 9-ball is worth 5 points. Players keep track of their score accumulation and game wins (used for tie breaking.)

After a match is completed, the players take their score cards to the scoring table. Once all matches are finished, the tournament director begins pairing up the next matches based on accumulated score: The player with the top score is paired up with the 2nd top scorer. If they have played previously in this tournament, then skip to the 3rd top scorer (and so on.) Pairing goes like this down the list until all players are paired, and the next match begins.

This format will end up in a constant weighting... the stronger you play, the more likely you will be matched up with a stronger player. And conversely, the weaker you play, you will match up to weaker players. (There is no advantage to sandbagging, you want the most points possible.)

That is the gist of it. The tournament ends when the predetermined number of matches are played out, and the score accumulations are presented. So here are some caveats I thought of:

*) odd number of players

When there is an odd player, you will have to draw a player at random each match, and that player receives a "bye" with the average available match points awarded to them.

*) not enough tables

When there are not enough tables to run all matches simultaneously, you must divide the players into half and play half at a time (or thirds or more.) This will end up with part of the field waiting for a match to end. This gives players ample time for smoke break and refreshments. :)

*) stragglers

Slow players could potentially hold up an entire match. It is important to keep matches short, such as 9-ball 3 game format. Again, more time for refreshments.

*) tie breakers

In the event of a tie in score (for pairing), use total game wins. If that is also a tie, draw straws or have players lag.

*) everyone plays everyone

In the event that there are N players and N-1 matches, everyone will play everyone once, eliminating the weighted round-robin effect of the tourney. In that case, you may want to introduce a handicap.

*) player handicaps:

You could give handicaps to known-rated players. Such as: C players get 30 points added to their final score. B players 20, A players 10. (it is important to add these at the end so they do not affect weighting.)

Here is a simple score card I made for this format:

http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/PointsTourney.pdf

I will be giving this a trial run soon, I'd like to hear any input you may have. Maybe I'm off my rocker, maybe something like this already exists? Thanks for your time!
 
I ran a simple round robin format in a bar with 3 tables. This worked out well for everyone including the bar. Everyone gets to participate and the bar sells booze.

I like your format. I think it has a lot of positive promotional points for the establishment, the good players and the weaker players.

Good Luck. Post back if you ever run one.
 
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I think DLD is right on track here, the format looks great from what I see, but the lower level players have to pay their due as a lot of have had to do over the years! If you are concerned for the lower level player than make a tournament for them or what ever skill level you are targeting, then everyone in the bracket has a chance. I have put on several tournaments that target certain skill levels and they work great and if a lower level player wants to test the water and step up to the challenge of the higher SL they have nothing to complain about when they go two and out. But they do learn a lot from playing better players. JMO
 
The idea isn't to put everyone one equal footing, but to help make things at least somewhat competitive. If you offer no handicaps, then its like shooting fish in a barrel and the fish won't show up to play. Most good players don't mind handicaps because they generally still come out on top anyways, and with a larger field the payouts are better.

As I mentioned earlier, the weighting is optional. You could also do a format where every match is completely random. You still gain the benefit of everyone playing to the end.
 
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I don't understand why everybody wants to reward those who haven't put the time in and screw those who have.

dld

The important point of this system was to get everyone to stick around until the end of the tourney and enjoy themselves. The rating system is optional, you can just do a random round robin instead of the weighting.
 
I agree with both sides of the coin here you can have it both ways. I run an intercity league and we have tournaments all the time from blind draw scotch doubles to skill level tournements to the free for all. I think your round robin format looks great and can be used for the stated above tournements. I feel that the lower level player have to put in the time on the table and that there should not be hand outs. If you want it bad enough you will put the time in on the table and you will learn how to win.
 
The important point of this system was to get everyone to stick around until the end of the tourney and enjoy themselves. The rating system is optional, you can just do a random round robin instead of the weighting.

I think we are on same track here: More playing time = more fun = more money fore the establishment = everyone is a winner:thumbup: ESPECIALLY if you get the cheese:D
 
I agree with both sides of the coin here you can have it both ways. I run an intercity league and we have tournaments all the time from blind draw scotch doubles to skill level tournements to the free for all. I think your round robin format looks great and can be used for the stated above tournements. I feel that the lower level player have to put in the time on the table and that there should not be hand outs. If you want it bad enough you will put the time in on the table and you will learn how to win.

Around here the tourneys are on the weekend, and we are lucky to get 16 players. Most people leave when they get knocked out. At the end you have a few players going another couple hours on a single table, all other tables sitting empty. It makes more sense to keep everyone around and shooting all the tables for the duration of the tourney. Everyone enjoys lots of pool playing, and the establishment sells more refreshments. win-win. This also helps get those lower level players that extra time on the table :)
 
I like the idea of round robin, roughly the way you described it. However, I don't necessarily agree with the pairing system you proposed initially. The idea of having everyone plays as many games against as many players as possible is a good one, but I still agree players who work harder in beginning rounds (translated from getting more points or winning more racks) should be given the opportunity to advance in an 'easier' way. By easier I meant players with high points play against players with low points. This surprisingly doesn't guarantee players with low points are without caliber.

If venue and resources allow, you can implement group matches like they do in many other sports, take World Cup (soccer) for example. The two winners of each 4-people group advance to the championship rounds, and you can introduce a new idea that the last two advance to consolation round. Both rounds will be single-elimination. This way you guarantee your players to have at least 4 shorter matches. Something along the line: 80% of the cash goes toward the championship round and the rest goes toward the consolation. It might work better, but who knows.
 
I do like the idea of figuring out ways to keep everybody in the tourney/venue longer.

I don't like the complicated scoring system. I'm sorry to say, but way too many pool players aren't good enough at math to keep their own score. It also opens up a whole new avenue of cheating.

To be clear, what you are suggesting is not a true round robin. You stated that the director would determine how many matches would take place, which means that there is a good chance that everybody wouldn't play everybody else. A round-robin, by definition, means that if you have X players, each person plays X-1 matches (rounds in this case). I actually think this part of your plan has merit and would play this in a random draw (I could easily create a bracket to play people at random and never play the same person twice).

I also like the idea that someone put out about the world-cup style qualifier. You could break into groups of four and play two different tourneys after a mini round robin determines the best two people from that group (they would be the "A" group, the others would form the "B" group). The "A" group would play a tourney for a bit more money than the B group tourney.

dld

Right, it was never stated to be true-round robin. If there are a lot of players it wouldn't be possible for every player to play each other in a reasonable race and timeframe. Since you only play a part of the field, the pairing would work either weighted round-robin, or random round-robin. Tournament length would also restrict the number of matches played.

I like the group/mini tourney idea too, it simplifies things. However it does not keep everyone playing to the end, if that is the goal.

I don't think the scoring is too bad, far easier than league night. Keep total points per game, 3 games per match. Just write em down, hand it to the score keeper.
 
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Right, it was never stated to be true-round robin. If there are a lot of players it wouldn't be possible for every player to play each other in a reasonable race and timeframe. Since you only play a part of the field, the pairing would work either weighted round-robin, or random round-robin. Tournament length would also restrict the number of matches played.

I like the group/mini tourney idea too, it simplifies things. However it does not keep everyone playing to the end, if that is the goal.

I don't think the scoring is too bad, far easier than league night. Keep total points per game, 3 games per match. Just write em down, hand it to the score keeper.

It's simply not feasible to keep everyone till the end. What you're trying to accomplish is to have lower-skilled players to have a chance to play as many matches as possible, and even win some money from the consolation group. You won't satisfy the top-ranked players when you take too much advantage away from them. It is a game of skill, and therefore, better players (however you want to define them) should win.
 
It's simply not feasible to keep everyone till the end. What you're trying to accomplish is to have lower-skilled players to have a chance to play as many matches as possible, and even win some money from the consolation group. You won't satisfy the top-ranked players when you take too much advantage away from them. It is a game of skill, and therefore, better players (however you want to define them) should win.

Why isn't it feasible? If you do not like the weighting, then do a random round-robin. Everyone has an equal chance of playing each other, and everyone plays to the end.
 
As for keeping everybody playing to the end, I don't necessarily think that is a good goal. I've been in loads of tourneys where people leave before they are out. I've seen people playing tourneys in this style (we had a 15 week round-robin straight pool tourney one year) quit coming before it was over. It really screws things up when that happens. We had to give everybody 0 points for the weeks they played those people.

I guess this goes back to my original point. I appreciate your creativity and desire to get people more playing time, but I think it could be done in other ways. Maybe have a second chance tourney.

Good luck!

dld

Good information. Do you know why people leave before it's over? Is it because they realize they are too far behind to have a chance at the cheese? Or is the format taking too long?

I wasn't thinking of trying this in a league quite yet, just looking for ways to make short tournaments more enticing.
 
Is this a yearly-event? If so, DoubleD already provided why it won't work as planned. If this is a one-day or three-day weekend tournament with 32 field, it'd require a serious amount of matches. Even you have enough resources to have as many tables as possible, there are simply too many short matches everyone has to go through. Luck does factor in quite a bit when playing 9-ball on short races. In addition, score tracking takes more time to process than simple win/loss of racks/sets. It will -- probably -- work better for a match to be set at, let's say, 5 racks. Win as many as you can.

Another thing with scoring points is that, like DoubleD mentioned, creates an avenue for cheating. I've played in so many APA Best of the Best tournaments, and almost every single time I found one or two of my opponents were cheating with their girlfriends marking the scoresheet. Dedicated scorekeeper is normally unavailable until perhaps the semis and the final. When I catch someone cheating, I normally just let it go if his handicap is about the same as mine. When I play against someone with significantly lowered handicap (19/25/31 points), and a stolen 2 to 4 points on their side results in a 10+ points loss on my side. It's ridiculous, and I snapped once. Bad outcome...

It's a good that you come out with something creative. Every opinion of mine is simply a suggestion.

Good luck.

Why isn't it feasible? If you do not like the weighting, then do a random round-robin. Everyone has an equal chance of playing each other, and everyone plays to the end.
 
I like the concept of trying to keep everyone playing as long as possible, we have round-robins around here every so often. But the issue is one of scope... if there are too many players it will go too long, as others have stated. Last week we played one-game 8-ball with 12 players and it took just over 4 hours. That was just about right for the folks in our room, on a Sunday afternoon.

You'll need to gauge your players desire and committment before going too far into one of these. When it goes off right (like ours did recently) it's great. (Arguably the best player in the group won in the end, but any of 4 players had a shot at taking it had they pulled out one or two more games, it was close.) If your players aren't interested in staying 4 or 5 or 6 hours, this might not be the best avenue to keep eveyone involved longer...

When it doesn't go right, it can make a lot of folks grumpy. We had one with 17 players once. Looongg afternoon into the night, and as someone else noted, one player dropped out which meant having to go back and take out his matches against everyone, and reconstruct the scoring.

I do like your idea. Maybe the modified world cup format can work, keep everyone there for most of it, and then just the top of the heap at the end. Keep working on your idea and let us know how it works when you use it.
 
Is this a yearly-event? If so, DoubleD already provided why it won't work as planned. If this is a one-day or three-day weekend tournament with 32 field, it'd require a serious amount of matches. Even you have enough resources to have as many tables as possible, there are simply too many short matches everyone has to go through. Luck does factor in quite a bit when playing 9-ball on short races. In addition, score tracking takes more time to process than simple win/loss of racks/sets. It will -- probably -- work better for a match to be set at, let's say, 5 racks. Win as many as you can.

Another thing with scoring points is that, like DoubleD mentioned, creates an avenue for cheating. I've played in so many APA Best of the Best tournaments, and almost every single time I found one or two of my opponents were cheating with their girlfriends marking the scoresheet. Dedicated scorekeeper is normally unavailable until perhaps the semis and the final. When I catch someone cheating, I normally just let it go if his handicap is about the same as mine. When I play against someone with significantly lowered handicap (19/25/31 points), and a stolen 2 to 4 points on their side results in a 10+ points loss on my side. It's ridiculous, and I snapped once. Bad outcome...

It's a good that you come out with something creative. Every opinion of mine is simply a suggestion.

Good luck.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Everyone does not play everyone. This is not meant to be a full round-robin tourney. You will only play part of the field, and the number of matches will be determined by the tournament director. They will determine this by a) how long each match is (ie. 9-ball race to 3), and how long they want the tournament to run (ie. 4 hours). Since you will not play everyone, the matches are chosen either by weight or random.

If this was meant to be full round-robin (N-1 matches) then doing weight or random would not be necessary, just rotate everyone through.
 
I like the concept of trying to keep everyone playing as long as possible, we have round-robins around here every so often. But the issue is one of scope... if there are too many players it will go too long, as others have stated. Last week we played one-game 8-ball with 12 players and it took just over 4 hours. That was just about right for the folks in our room, on a Sunday afternoon.

You'll need to gauge your players desire and committment before going too far into one of these. When it goes off right (like ours did recently) it's great. (Arguably the best player in the group won in the end, but any of 4 players had a shot at taking it had they pulled out one or two more games, it was close.) If your players aren't interested in staying 4 or 5 or 6 hours, this might not be the best avenue to keep eveyone involved longer...

When it doesn't go right, it can make a lot of folks grumpy. We had one with 17 players once. Looongg afternoon into the night, and as someone else noted, one player dropped out which meant having to go back and take out his matches against everyone, and reconstruct the scoring.

I do like your idea. Maybe the modified world cup format can work, keep everyone there for most of it, and then just the top of the heap at the end. Keep working on your idea and let us know how it works when you use it.

Yeah I think there is a misunderstanding. My original format does not rotate all players through to play everyone. Each player will play a set number of matches, determined by the TD. The players they play will be determined either by weight or random. The TD has full control of the tourney length.
 
Sorry for overlooking your original post. It was just the word round robin replaced your post in subsequent posts and I just forgot your original description of the tourney.

If that's case, it's fine as long as your players agree to stick around for the amount of time the TD decides on. I'd still have the top two players play the final match simply because it's exciting to see a match that decides who's the ultimate winner.

Points structure might work for smaller tournaments. I'd suggest to take at least 30% of the prize pool and reserve that for the final two. The rest divides evenly according to how many points a player receives.

- Eric



Yeah I think there is a misunderstanding. My original format does not rotate all players through to play everyone. Each player will play a set number of matches, determined by the TD. The players they play will be determined either by weight or random. The TD has full control of the tourney length.
 
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