Pool League Dislikes - Possible solutions

[FLICKit]

After seeing comments raised in other threads, I thought it might be interesting to define/state the problems of league play, and potentially to follow it up with solutions/recommendations for improvement. Something in the range of what is the most ideal system, without going into fantasy land.


Sandbagging: unfortunately it'ss a human element, which occurs in basically every league (APA, TAP, BCA, VNEA, ...).
Some of the systems try to counter that by having no handicaps. The flaw of that is that the outcome of most every match can be pre-determined. Not much fun or incentive for the better player when he knows he can play half-a$$ed and still win.
Any 1 game system - where you play 1 or more opponents 1 game only. 1 game systems will always be inherently flawed, because there is so much variability in just 1 game. Not an accurate representation.
Solution: Anything with a rating system, it's imperative for it to reflect a player's true ability as accurately as possible and reasonable.

League system's with too low of a team rating, which forces teammates to divide themselves too often.
League system's with too high of a team rating / no team rating, thus the season outcome can essentially be pre-determined. For example, if the same 10 teams play together for 3-5 seasons, then if you can relatively predict the standings for those teams to be relatively the same in each of the seasons, then that can be quite boring.
Solution: open to suggestions... how do you get the right balance?


NOTE: This thread is not about people with an agenda just to promote leagues that they are currently affiliated with. Step outside the box for a moment and be a little more open minded.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Okay, some might be specific to New York City but these are issues I have with the APA.

1. The watered-down rules. I think it's imperative to have one set everybody plays by.

2. Bar Tables. I don't mean 7 footers with Simonis cloth and Super Aramith balls. I mean bars that have these ratty old pool tables, balls that haven't been cleaned this decade and a jukebox perfectly situated 6 inches from the left side of the table. Equipment that is inferior to what you would normally find in the wort of poolrooms.

3. One table, Five matches. It's the longest night ever to only find yourself sitting out. You simply cannot keep your APA captain and boss happy the same week. It's just not going to happen.

4. Inaccurate handicaps. I hate the whole sandbagging argument. People quickly think others are being dishonest and that's not always the case. I just think things are occasionally inaccurate and no computer system is going to be able to keep up with general improvement. You need a human being running the league. Then and only then will veteran teams be protected from new ringers and fast improving members.

5. Travel. There was a time I enjoyed visiting every bar in the city. I'm older now. Now, I want to be in a place I know is comfortable. I want to be at my home bar every week.

6. Inexperienced Veterans. The APA is full of them. The bulk of the APA is run by relative beginnienr/low-intermediate players. Division Representatives, Board Runners, LOs, etc. are frequently low-ranked players. Although they do have thorough knowledge of what the APA book says, it's impossible to completely understand those rules without having a thorough knowledge of pool and all of its rules.

7. Low team caps. I hate seeing teams break-up. Since when did a s/l 4 become an experienced player? As far as I'm concerned, anything below s/l 7 is intermediate or below. There's TONS to still learn. Having such a low team cap only forces good players to move around. Every APA member who has done it for more than a couple years has an old team they miss. I'm sick of kicking players off, finding new ones, leaving teams, etc. I want one group to hang with until we decide, not the league.

 

[cubc]

7. Low team caps. I hate seeing teams break-up. Since when did a s/l 4 become an experienced player? As far as I'm concerned, anything below s/l 7 is intermediate or below. There's TONS to still learn. Having such a low team cap only forces good players to move around. Every APA member who has done it for more than a couple years has an old team they miss. I'm sick of kicking players off, finding new ones, leaving teams, etc. I want one group to hang with until we decide, not the league.

Amen. I've only played 1 session and half of this one and our team is going to have to split up. if one more person goes up 1 point then neither me or my friend will ever be able to play on that team. And we like playing together.

 

[FLICKit]

4. Inaccurate handicaps. I hate the whole sandbagging argument. People quickly think others are being dishonest and that's not always the case. I just think things are occasionally inaccurate and no computer system is going to be able to keep up with general improvement. You need a human being running the league. Then and only then will veteran teams be protected from new ringers and fast improving members.

Here in Phoenix they have a rating system (non-APA) that is run by humans only, and there are many many complaints about its inaccuracies. Opens the door for it to be very political.

 

[Vinnie]

I had the privilege of running the Men's 8-ball league in my town this past season. My league fits into one of your typical bad scenarios. We have between eight and ten 5-man teams with no handicap system and each week teams play round robins (1 game ea - 25 total, 13 or more wins the match). Each year there are one to three "stacked" teams, so the outcome is predictable.

My suggestion for this situation is to install a simple handicap system, since tradition (and funds) in my league would never allow a sanctioned system.

One idea is to create a point system based on current individual standings. Each team is assigned one point for each individual in the top 20% (ex. top 10 for 50 players). Therefore if a team is "stacked" with several top players, they are assigned more points. The points may then be used to determine a final score for the match. In my situation, 13+ out of 25 games wins the match, so the team with the most handicap points must win 13 + (difference in handicaps). Therefore as an example, a totally stacked team must win 18 games against the worst team to get the match or 15 games against a team with 3 top players. It doesn't sound like much, but I think it would make a difference, or at least make everyone play their best every week.

 

[kaznj]

Here is a rule from the APA that most people are not aware of. If two tables are available and the 4th match does not start by 2 hours past the official starting time they MUST play the last two matches at the same time. Even if they have to pay for the extra table. This is not a choice. I use this rule every week. The other teams don't like it, but everyone on my team has a real job. We get up early and go to work. One captain refused. We walked out after the 4th match. The last match was forfeit by the other team because they refused to follow the rule.
I would like to see each team forced to play equal or close to equal players against each other. If a 5 plays a 3 the 5 and can run up the innings because the 3 is not going to run out. If the 5 plays a 5 and tries to run up the innings he might face a run out or good safety. Limit the difference in ratings to 2 numbers or have an increase in the the handicap. Last week I put up a six, the other team put up a 3. They have 2 sixes and 2 fives. This stinks. Where is the compeititon?

 

[Snapshot9]

lol

I don't why you are discussing this, it won't change anything. The only way you are going to change things is by starting your own league, and instigate regulations and rules that are fair for all players, including those at the top of the handicap system too.

You see, I have never been in favor of leveling all players. I am favor of handicapping 90%, but not 100%. Lower level players can advance much faster than someone at the top of the food chain, and leaving that 10% in there is motivation for them to IMPROVE their game in order to win, plus if they do improve over time, then they will not be punished when they play lower level handicaps. The luck factor changes a lower level players game to a much larger degree than it does someone that is already real good

That way, when a lower level player beats someone higher, it is because they earned it because they rose above their normal game.

But, here is one that has not been mentioned before...... League operators that have no command of basic mathematics, let alone of complex formulas.

 

[desmocourtney]

The APA rules seem to incourage sandbagging.
The BCA handicapping works well.

Slop pool is for kids.

Coaster pool is for retards.
Loosing a game because you made a straight in 8 ball shot that was in the jaws and you forgot to mark the pocket is assinine.

Skill level limits only serve to enrich the league operator.

I once played in a BCA league that required the use of 2 tables at the same time. Freakin heaven I tell ya!

In my area, north central MD, its difficult to start a new league because the APA is so entrenched. Most of the players have never played anything else.

The APA system may be fine for newer players but serious players are rare because of the rules.

Courtney

 

[Goldy]

I really don't think there's going to be a ample solution in any league, anywhere, anytime. I have to concur that the BCA in my opinion is probably on the upward probability of being the best, and of course The BCA is comparable to VNEA. I've been playing pool for over 20 years, and in leauges since 1997. At that time APA (Busch) and VNEA were the dominate ones, in which I played for both. Now I play for all 3 between 5 evenings a week. And of course the countless hours spent in the pool halls playing one pocket, golf, straight, and 9-ball on the big tables.

My only beef about VNEA is their racket of only being able to play on owner operated equipment. This hurts the VNEA quite badly in my opinion. APA and BCA can be played on any table, anywhere, anytime. NICE!

With the ever-growing popularity of the Diamond 7' Smart Tables, which are freaking indestructible, play ever so consistent no matter where you play on one at, and are just plain BETTER tables, I'm sure most pool players would rather play on a Diamond 7' Bar Table, other than what is out there. With big investments at large vending/coin-op companies in local areas that have many Dynamo/Valley coin tables, good luck seeing a Diamond Table offered by them anytime soon. That really makes the end consumer frustrated, especially those that take pool seriously, not being able to experience new billiard equipment & technologies.

I'm sure I don't have to drag out that conversation any further. Most here on AZ would concur. At least I hope so.

As far as sandbagging.. It will happen in any type of league. That is human nature, and there is no handicap system that could be put in place that couldn't be circumvented. APA in my opinion does have the best system currently, that allows ALL of its qualified players play together in 1 National Event, which is very beneficial to the bottom line! Its probably why it is the largest and offers the highest amateur payout of any other league system. But jesus, its a freaking job to keep score!, and keeping score is no fun when your out to spend your evening to relax and play pool. Plus if you want to make it to at least the top 128, or even have a chance winning out in Vegas for APA, you better have something up your sleeve!

 

[TheBook]

Just play a 5 man team with each player playing 3 games in a modified round robin. Match up the players as you go. Winning team puts up next player first. Alternate breaking. Play heads up with call pocket. CB fouls only, no jumping, BIH, open table after the break, can make a combo after the break using both groups but not hit the 8 ball first in any combo. Scatch on the 8 or made out of turn is a loss of game. This will eliminate sandbagging and should make players want to get better. If they don't like being beat learn to play better or don't play.

Just some starting thoughts.

 

[i4pool]

I, for one, played on the same APA 9-ball team for 6 years and just this past season got let go because of the difficulty of being able to field enough players while staying within the 23-rule (I'm an APA-8). That team was a lot of fun. We even placed 9th in the 2006 Team Championships in Vegas. What an experience that was. I do miss playing with them. Every now and then I do get to see them since my wife still plays on the team.

How did the magic number 23 get chosen anyway? Do you think the APA would ever change it?

Regards,

 

[Vinnie]

... If they don't like being beat learn to play better or don't play...

If I told that to my league members, we would end up with only three teams. Face it, there are bar bangers who like to play, but are not willing or able to put in the time.

 

[TheBook]

How did the magic number 23 get chosen anyway? Do you think the APA would ever change it?

Regards,[/QUOTE]

I think that the 23 rule is what contributes to a lot of sandbagging. You have a group of players that are friends and want to stay on the same team. So they do what they can to keep their ranking from going up.

The APA says strive to get better and move up. Since the APA is a franchise system the LO want more teams. The way to do this in their thinking is to have players get better and make teams split up. The higher ranked players will then have to recruit some lower entry level player to form a new team. Sometimes it backfires because players just lose interest.

They also get tired of seeing those posters about winning a million dollars. After a few sessions the players realize they have a better chance of winning the lottery and would be happy if they got back enough to buy a drink and put a new tip on their cue.

 

[i4pool]

The APA says strive to get better and move up. Since the APA is a franchise system the LO want more teams. The way to do this in their thinking is to have players get better and make teams split up. The higher ranked players will then have to recruit some lower entry level player to form a new team. Sometimes it backfires because players just lose interest.

TheBook- That makes perfect sense. It's unfortunate though. For me, I don't want to play with any other team... at least for the time being. I guess I'll just focus more on my individual game and play tourneys. Cheers!