Poolgame: Kill the King

[DaWizard]

Btw something occured to me. In our testgames we noticed it's very easy to escape troublesome situations. If 2 balls are attracked you just use 1 as a cue ball and play the other into safety.

With the new rule "you must move an opponent's ball" (or perhaps: you must hit an opponent's ball first) and touch a rail after, this is a little more difficult!

If you fail to do so the opponent gets a point which he can use to rerecruit balls later in the game, which sucks! But sometimes you might want to shoot that Intentional foul to get important balls out of trouble.

Like you I think Intentional fouls are fun. They add a layer of easily overlooked, unexpected strategy. I'm just a bit scared that the rules make it something common. (not sure if I should be. Perhaps it's fun if ~5% of the shots are intentional fouls)

 

[Pin]

Btw something occured to me. In our testgames we noticed it's very easy to escape troublesome situations. If 2 balls are attracked you just use 1 as a cue ball and play the other into safety.

With the new rule "you must move an opponent's ball" (or perhaps: you must hit an opponent's ball first) and touch a rail after, this is a little more difficult!

Good observation. I like it.

If you fail to do so the opponent gets a point which he can use to rerecruit balls later in the game, which sucks! But sometimes you might want to shoot that Intentional foul to get important balls out of trouble.

Like you I think Intentional fouls are fun. They add a layer of easily overlooked, unexpected strategy. I'm just a bit scared that the rules make it something common. (not sure if I should be. Perhaps it's fun if ~5% of the shots are intentional fouls)

I think the key to making intentional fouls work is getting the right punishment - strong enough that they're rare, but weak enough that it's sometimes the right shot.
There's a lot of flexibility in the punishment in KtK - I like the points system, and you could make it 2 points for each foul, if 1 wasn't enough.

 

[Pin]

Ohh that's interesting. Then even if your balls are low, you can still get a high profile kill - if you play a very good shot. Would you be allowed to pot the King in this way too?
E.g. My 1 pots your 1 and a carom on your King tgat falls too. (everything called of course)

That wasn't what I meant, I was thinking that, for example, the 4 ball could make both the 9 and 11 on a single shot (but not the 13).
But the way you suggest could be worth trying too. It could make some spectacular wins.

 

[DaWizard]

Agree to all imma going to pick another date with the test guy.

List of things to test:
- jumpshot allowed?
- jump and combinations with the 8 allowed, or should it be a neutral wall?
- rule: each shot you must move an enemy ball or each shot you must hit an enemy ball first (I think the latter)
- saboteur: sabotage AND pot or sabotage OR pot?
- where to place recruit, respot and 'rerecruits': anywhere, original half or not on enemy king half?
- should respotted balls always be placed anywhere on table? (after the shot)
- 1 point or 2 points for a foul?
- multiple pots: must call all. Can a secondary shot be a higher numbered ball? (this does raise a question: what if the first ball doesnt fall? It should be a problem because otherwise someone can 'fake call a shot' just to carom on a high profile ball. So I think the first, equal or lowered number ball must fall in order for the 2nd ball to be legal)

Guide changes:
- State clearly that reservists are ordered from low to high.
- State that lowered numbered balls can hit higher numbered balls legally, just not pot them. (Ive pondered on making it illegal to hit a higher numbered ball, but that would make the lower balls almost useless (to recruit) and observong the game very complex.)
- Change Kingslayer to Executioner. I think that's better.

 

[DaWizard]

@Pin so tonight we've played another bunch of games. The guy bought a set of English pool balls (red vs yellow) because he thought we should try out more simple rules. My man bought an entire poolball set just to test!

His reasoning, to which I agree: "I asked people to read your rules and they were like 'too complex'. He told them: if you play a game you'll understand. Nevertheless we startend with two on the spot made up Kill the King variants with only equal balls and a King. Unfortunately neither variants were very appealing so we switched to regular complex Kill the King

We played
1) without the assassin: did not miss it at all
2) all balls respotted/recruited anywhere on the table. Works perfect to our taste!
3) must hit opponent's ball first and a rail after, or else you get 1 strike (=point to rebuy a ball). The strike thing felt a bit cumbersome. But it is fun. It's just.. not elegant because you must remember another thing. It is fun though and proper punshment to a foul.
4) 2 lives for the King (we didn't try 3). If your king is potted you must respot anywhere on table and it ends your turn immediatly. This was nice. It gives you some room to fuck up.

Conclusion: the game is fun. But it is fun for the 5% of the pool players that like to really think about the next shot. You have to get used to looking at the table differently. But it is fun!

We recorded 3 games. Im not sure how well you can follow the game from the shitty footage. Imagine Blair Witch Project, the poolhall version. But ill edit it and upload it as soon as I got time.

 

[DaWizard]

Just rewatched one match. The footage is pretty good, but hard to see whats happening. Even for me and I just played said game a couple hours ago.

 

[Pin]

I like the progress you're making.

The guy bought a set of English pool balls (red vs yellow) because he thought we should try out more simple rules....Unfortunately neither variants were very appealing so we switched to regular complex Kill the King

How did you identify the kings? I live in the UK and the vast majority of tables are reds and yellows, so it would be interesting if it worked. Although I don't see how it could!

We played
1) without the assassin: did not miss it at all

Interesting! That surprises me.

3) must hit opponent's ball first and a rail after, or else you get 1 strike (=point to rebuy a ball). The strike thing felt a bit cumbersome. But it is fun. It's just.. not elegant because you must remember another thing. It is fun though and proper punshment to a foul.

It sounds good to me. It sounds like a well-balanced punishment.
We may have already said, but when you use your foul points to recruit a ball, is that instead of shooting, or after you've taken a shot?

4) 2 lives for the King (we didn't try 3). If your king is potted you must respot anywhere on table and it ends your turn immediatly. This was nice. It gives you some room to fuck up.

What do you mean by ends your turn immediately? After the other guy kills your king, do you just repot it, then he gets another shot, or do you get a shot, then respot your king after (same as for an illegally potted ball)?

 

[DaWizard]

I like the progress you're making.

How did you identify the kings? I live in the UK and the vast majority of tables are reds and yellows, so it would be interesting if it worked. Although I don't see how it could!

We used White and Black as kings. We played two variant. The better one was: both rack 3 balls on one side, break them, then place the King.
The King was allowed to shoot twice, if you pot the first ball. King was potted last. If you win your opponent gets 4 balls next round. First to lose with 5 balls has lost. Was not bad, but not much fun either.

Interesting! That surprises me.

It sounds good to me. It sounds like a well-balanced punishment.
We may have already said, but when you use your foul points to recruit a ball, is that instead of shooting, or after you've taken a shot?

Instead of shooting.

What do you mean by ends your turn immediately? After the other guy kills your king, do you just repot it, then he gets another shot, or do you get a shot, then respot your king after (same as for an illegally potted ball)?

Here also instead of shooting.

Respot of illegal potted ball is the only instance where you place a ball after your shot in the current ruleset.

Oh and we never jumped. We kind of forgot. But we discussed it and our conclusion (not per se a final conclusion) was that jumping sometimes ruins good shots. Like.. You played a smart safe and then the opponent just jumps and pots.

Thinking about the game I think the recruitment phase is not ideal. It's difficult to get a real advantage and immediatly requires deep thinking.
I dont know a better solution right now. But the regular breaking in 8,9,10 is just fun and you just have to play the table that you get.

Then again. Maybe if we play another 10 games things become more easy and natural.

 

[Pin]

Thinking about the game I think the recruitment phase is not ideal. It's difficult to get a real advantage and immediatly requires deep thinking.
I dont know a better solution right now. But the regular breaking in 8,9,10 is just fun and you just have to play the table that you get.

Then again. Maybe if we play another 10 games things become more easy and natural.

The deep thinking is tricky, because that's part of the appeal of the game, but also a put-off when it feels complex or unenjoyable.

Also, if you get better at placing the balls quickly (and learn what layout you like), it means that placement starts out difficult and requires thinking when you're new to the game, but becomes very simple when you're a little more experienced. Which is the opposite of what you want, really.

I suppose the rules could give one or two suggested layouts. Then people could experiment with improvements as they got better at the game.

If breaking your (racked) group worked well in the reds and yellows game, could it also work in regular KtK?
The idea of breaking, getting no second shot, so having to leave your king safe on the break appeals to me. Then maybe there's a trade-off between risk and reward.

 

[DaWizard]

The deep thinking is tricky, because that's part of the appeal of the game, but also a put-off when it feels complex or unenjoyable.

Also, if you get better at placing the balls quickly (and learn what layout you like), it means that placement starts out difficult and requires thinking when you're new to the game, but becomes very simple when you're a little more experienced. Which is the opposite of what you want, really.

Placement got easier, but to be honest I didn't have the feeling that I was placing smarter or better in the course of games. In my mind it is interesting that you both have to select your balls and place them yourself. It provides for a lot of tactics.

I would love to see what meta strategies would come out on top if a bunch of good players played it for a couple weeks.

One thing I did notice is that after the first or second shot I thought "oh this one should have been an inch more to the left so it's covered" or "... so I could see his 3"

I suppose the rules could give one or two suggested layouts. Then people could experiment with improvements as they got better at the game.

Yeah some scenario's! Good one.
Then you can start shooting right away.

If breaking your (racked) group worked well in the reds and yellows game, could it also work in regular KtK?
The idea of breaking, getting no second shot, so having to leave your king safe on the break appeals to me. Then maybe there's a trade-off between risk and reward.

See next post

 

[DaWizard]

Haha tried chalkysticks on mobile. Silly me.

For breaking I see some possibilities:
1) Rack all 4 (simple variant) or 6 (full variant) in your half of the table - break and place the King.
2) Rack all 5 (simple) or 7 (full) in your half, break, first player must shoot a safety shot.
3) buy balls for 10 points, rack on your side of the table and break (then place king) - this seems a bit odd.

But with 1 and 2 you've got identical armies. Maybe that's ok though.

Also what happens when you pot a ball in the break?
And can balls pass the center line on the break? If so, what if im first, I break really hard and my balls break up your rack?

 

[Pin]

Good questions. I think they can only be answered by testing the options.

 

[DaWizard]

Hey @Pin I did not forget about Kill the King. Just lately very busy and to be frank REALLY concerned about the loss of biodiversity and climate change. This resulted in me putting my energy towards making a change (and yes I dont carry much illusion that itll help, but I want to tell my kids I did everything I can) and a feeling that putting energy into long term projects like this is of little use.

I do plan to find a night or 2-3 to make a video on the rules. Just so it's out there. But yeah, not feeling to well, emotionally. But I like to finish things, so my Intention to finish it is not a hollow promise.

Either way, thanks a lot for the time and effort you put into this. We both know it was a matter of time before Kill the King would overtake 9-ball in popularity

 

[Pin]

No problem, I know the feeling of having more to do than you can fit in!

I enjoyed figuring out the rules and tactics. It was a nice little experiment. Most of the tables here in the UK are reds and yellows, so I've still not tried it against anyone, but I will try to eventually!

Stay well. As you say, there's only so much individuals can do about these things.