position of butt hand (when shooting pool)

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
not to be confused with what you do with your significant other
I've read here and I'm sure other places that it's good to have one's forearm perpendicular to the ground..ideal?
having one's butt hand behind that perpendicular line seems awkward for stroking..but how about in front of it? ok or nah?
 
not to be confused with what you do with your significant other
I've read here and I'm sure other places that it's good to have one's forearm perpendicular to the ground..ideal?
having one's butt hand behind that perpendicular line seems awkward for stroking..but how about in front of it? ok or nah?
forearm perpendicular to the ground.
that's the text book way to do it.
But if you watch 20 good players they are all over the place.
It's what feels comfortable to each person.
 
not to be confused with what you do with your significant other
I've read here and I'm sure other places that it's good to have one's forearm perpendicular to the ground..ideal?
having one's butt hand behind that perpendicular line seems awkward for stroking..but how about in front of it? ok or nah?
I think lots of players misinterpret this - it really should be perpendicular to the cue stick (which is rarely parallel with the ground), so the tip travels as straight as possible for the final few inches as it approaches the cue ball.

pj
chgo
 
I think lots of players misinterpret this - it really should be perpendicular to the cue stick (which is rarely parallel with the ground), so the tip travels as straight as possible for the final few inches as it approaches the cue ball.

pj
chgo
He's asking about the forearm being perpendicular to the floor,in other words straight up and down.
With elbow and upper arm forming a right angle.
 
perpendicular is conventional wisdom
many old time straight pool players who didnt need alot of power were forward of perpendicular
 
perpendicular is conventional wisdom
many old time straight pool players who didnt need alot of power were forward of perpendicular
I grew up on straight pool and my hand is a little forward.
I have to remember to shift it back a couple inches on power shots.
 
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Perhaps somebody can explain this. Most people slide into position to put tip at address position. A few people when setting up will sort of wave shaft pass cue ball and then slide into position. What point on the butt those people are most likely holding, 90 to cue or less?
 
I think lots of players misinterpret this - it really should be perpendicular to the cue stick (which is rarely parallel with the ground), so the tip travels as straight as possible for the final few inches as it approaches the cue ball.

pj
chgo
By the way, this is at CB address position with the tip near the CB, so your tip's straightest motion is a little before and after contact.

pj
chgo
 
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I grew up on straight pool and my hand is a little forward.
I have to remember to shift it back a couple inches on power shots.
Yes, I grew up on straight pool as well and I also had my back hand a little forward. As soon as I started playing 9 ball, I just naturally moved it back. I guess I was getting out of line a lot in those days and every shot was a big shot. :ROFLMAO:
 
forearm perpendicular to the ground.
that's the text book way to do it.
But if you watch 20 good players they are all over the place.
It's what feels comfortable to each person.
Yes. There are many ways to stroke a cue and some key features of some strokes will be seen as stroke killing flaws for others....but limiting discussion to just forearm angle, there will be 3 camps, each with world class pros to point to as 'proof' of the way.

Perpendicular to the floor (classic and most common). This makes sense because at address you have the tip at rest (hanging). As you take the cue back and let it return to rest, the cue will have momentum take it beyond the starting point and move str8 through the cue ball. You can, of course, aid this return to rest by adding force at any point to fine tune the acceleration and speed of the move, but the underlying physics of the setup just make sense. What goes along with this hand in hand is a higher shoulder position and upper arm parallel to the ground, setting up a good bio-mechanically sound position for straight cue action through the ball.

Forearm beyond 90* (farther back) is probably least common and consists of the guys who focus on that bio-mechanically sound position maybe to a fault. PJ mentioned this method in a post above... that the biomechanics of being 90* to the cue will aid in straighter delivery through the ball. Easy to believe in but not necessarily superior to any other technique. This method is most methodical and muscularly controlled and carries more tension than the other 2 setups in general, though there will always be outliers.

Forearm short of 90* (closer to tip) is used by all chicken wing players, flowy Filipinos like Efren and Busty, as well as dead eye Americans like Strickland and Van Boening...although Strickland's technique varied a bit through his long career depending on how high he got his shoulder...when the shoulder is low, he is def in this category. Pretty much any player who has that distinct cue action of a vertical wobble where the cue drops in the backswing and raises back up before final delivery falls into this category, as do I (the wobble in my stroke is vertical :p). I obv have a bias towards this method but there are very strong biomechanical reasons to use it. The reason so many top pros use this angle in the forearm is that it puts the arm in a stronger position. When in a strong position it is more difficult to deviate off path (shoot straighter in repeatable way) and much much easier to generate power, esp at the very end of the stroke leading to what snooker players refer to as a 'positive finish' meaning the cue accelerates all the way up until it runs out of real-estate and slams to a hault. Key to note here is that this effortless power will go hand in hand with a bit of upper arm movement--you don't need a lot but there needs to be some for the power to be effortless. These players generally have a ton of action on the cue ball and will often do it with much shorter follow throughs than the other methods...again mostly bc the shoulder is down and the angle in the elbow has it nearer to the finishing position....something they get away with bc of the rapid acceleration right up until the end of the stroke.
Another group of players in this category is the guys who play a lot of touch shots and soft shots and get their arm into a strong position in order to have a solid feel on those delicate shots. Some of the most difficult shots to pull off with authority are the ones you have to hit gently. A strong position, and addressing the cue ball closer to finishing position will allow a player to play soft shots solidly so it is no wonder why ppl above mentioned using these mechanics for soft shots in 14.1 days but moved to the longer lever more classic setups which offer more power to a linear stroke. Again, with a vertical component to the stroke, there is no more powerful a technique than this one with the forearm forward of 90*.

Here is a clip of Dr. Dave breaking down Shane's break shot. He points out the strong position his arm is in and the power he is able to generate as a result. Obv this is a break and there are many more moving parts but his in game stroke is quite wavy in the lead up to his final delivery and when he is loose stroking in a practice session without locked down mechanics, it remains pretty wavy throughout, but always with that way under 90* elbow angle and forearm slightly forward of perpendicular to the ground.
 
Yes. There are many ways to stroke a cue and some key features of some strokes will be seen as stroke killing flaws for others....but limiting discussion to just forearm angle, there will be 3 camps, each with world class pros to point to as 'proof' of the way.

Perpendicular to the floor (classic and most common). This makes sense because at address you have the tip at rest (hanging). As you take the cue back and let it return to rest, the cue will have momentum take it beyond the starting point and move str8 through the cue ball. You can, of course, aid this return to rest by adding force at any point to fine tune the acceleration and speed of the move, but the underlying physics of the setup just make sense. What goes along with this hand in hand is a higher shoulder position and upper arm parallel to the ground, setting up a good bio-mechanically sound position for straight cue action through the ball.

Forearm beyond 90* (farther back) is probably least common and consists of the guys who focus on that bio-mechanically sound position maybe to a fault. PJ mentioned this method in a post above... that the biomechanics of being 90* to the cue will aid in straighter delivery through the ball. Easy to believe in but not necessarily superior to any other technique. This method is most methodical and muscularly controlled and carries more tension than the other 2 setups in general, though there will always be outliers.

Forearm short of 90* (closer to tip) is used by all chicken wing players, flowy Filipinos like Efren and Busty, as well as dead eye Americans like Strickland and Van Boening...although Strickland's technique varied a bit through his long career depending on how high he got his shoulder...when the shoulder is low, he is def in this category. Pretty much any player who has that distinct cue action of a vertical wobble where the cue drops in the backswing and raises back up before final delivery falls into this category, as do I (the wobble in my stroke is vertical :p). I obv have a bias towards this method but there are very strong biomechanical reasons to use it. The reason so many top pros use this angle in the forearm is that it puts the arm in a stronger position. When in a strong position it is more difficult to deviate off path (shoot straighter in repeatable way) and much much easier to generate power, esp at the very end of the stroke leading to what snooker players refer to as a 'positive finish' meaning the cue accelerates all the way up until it runs out of real-estate and slams to a hault. Key to note here is that this effortless power will go hand in hand with a bit of upper arm movement--you don't need a lot but there needs to be some for the power to be effortless. These players generally have a ton of action on the cue ball and will often do it with much shorter follow throughs than the other methods...again mostly bc the shoulder is down and the angle in the elbow has it nearer to the finishing position....something they get away with bc of the rapid acceleration right up until the end of the stroke.
Another group of players in this category is the guys who play a lot of touch shots and soft shots and get their arm into a strong position in order to have a solid feel on those delicate shots. Some of the most difficult shots to pull off with authority are the ones you have to hit gently. A strong position, and addressing the cue ball closer to finishing position will allow a player to play soft shots solidly so it is no wonder why ppl above mentioned using these mechanics for soft shots in 14.1 days but moved to the longer lever more classic setups which offer more power to a linear stroke. Again, with a vertical component to the stroke, there is no more powerful a technique than this one with the forearm forward of 90*.

Here is a clip of Dr. Dave breaking down Shane's break shot. He points out the strong position his arm is in and the power he is able to generate as a result. Obv this is a break and there are many more moving parts but his in game stroke is quite wavy in the lead up to his final delivery and when he is loose stroking in a practice session without locked down mechanics, it remains pretty wavy throughout, but always with that way under 90* elbow angle and forearm slightly forward of perpendicular to the ground.
Dave missed or didn't care to address the most important aspect of Shane's break, and that Shane's release and grab of his grip hand accompanied by a wrist flick. This generates a concentrated burst of acceleration during the stroke. This grab and release-flick is extremely effective, especially when the table isn't very generous to the breaker.
 
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Forearm short of 90* (closer to tip) is used by all chicken wing players, flowy Filipinos like Efren and Busty, as well as dead eye Americans like Strickland and Van Boening...although Strickland's technique varied a bit through his long career depending on how high he got his shoulder...when the shoulder is low, he is def in this category. Pretty much any player who has that distinct cue action of a vertical wobble where the cue drops in the backswing and raises back up before final delivery falls into this category, as do I (the wobble in my stroke is vertical :p). I obv have a bias towards this method but there are very strong biomechanical reasons to use it. The reason so many top pros use this angle in the forearm is that it puts the arm in a stronger position. When in a strong position it is more difficult to deviate off path (shoot straighter in repeatable way) and much much easier to generate power, esp at the very end of the stroke leading to what snooker players refer to as a 'positive finish' meaning the cue accelerates all the way up until it runs out of real-estate and slams to a hault. Key to note here is that this effortless power will go hand in hand with a bit of upper arm movement--you don't need a lot but there needs to be some for the power to be effortless. These players generally have a ton of action on the cue ball and will often do it with much shorter follow throughs than the other methods...again mostly bc the shoulder is down and the angle in the elbow has it nearer to the finishing position....something they get away with bc of the rapid acceleration right up until the end of the stroke.
Another group of players in this category is the guys who play a lot of touch shots and soft shots and get their arm into a strong position in order to have a solid feel on those delicate shots. Some of the most difficult shots to pull off with authority are the ones you have to hit gently. A strong position, and addressing the cue ball closer to finishing position will allow a player to play soft shots solidly so it is no wonder why ppl above mentioned using these mechanics for soft shots in 14.1 days but moved to the longer lever more classic setups which offer more power to a linear stroke. Again, with a vertical component to the stroke, there is no more powerful a technique than this one with the forearm forward of 90*.

great stuff, thanks..look forward to meditating on this
thanks all for the replies-
 
Forearm beyond 90* (farther back) is probably least common and consists of the guys who focus on that bio-mechanically sound position maybe to a fault. PJ mentioned this method in a post above... that the biomechanics of being 90* to the cue will aid in straighter delivery through the ball. Easy to believe in but not necessarily superior to any other technique. This method is most methodical and muscularly controlled and carries more tension than the other 2 setups in general, though there will always be outliers.
I mention perpendicular-to-the-cue only to clarify the principle - in practice if you play with a reasonably level cue the difference in tip trajectory is pretty negligible.

The reason so many top pros use this angle in the forearm is that it puts the arm in a stronger position.
I've heard (and feel) that the arm's natural peak speed is just forward of vertical.

FWIW, I've always thought Shane's break power comes from standing up during the shot stroke, straightening his arm to lengthen the lever he's swinging and involving his shoulder muscle to swing it.

pj
chgo
 
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I mention perpendicular-to-the-cue only to clarify the principle - in practice if you play with a reasonably level cue the difference in tip trajectory is pretty negligible.


I've heard (and feel) that the arm's natural peak speed is just forward of vertical.

FWIW, I've always thought Shane's break power comes from standing up during the shot stroke, straightening his arm to lengthen the lever he's swinging and involving his shoulder muscle to swing it.

pj
chgo
Yes, bringing the shoulder into it has massive power for the reasons you mention. The strong position of the arm is important for transmitting that power to the wrist snap and the cue tip as it ensures a slack free connection through the kinetic chain. With no slack spots in how the arm is connected to the body, even the slightest tug at one end results in a swift reaction at the other...force is efficiently transmitted. This efficient transmission of force and using little tugs here and there to set off chain reactions and effortless cue power are the real beauty of Shane and Earl's technique. I kinda wish I didn't post the break vid and just one of him shooting around instead bc it is not so much the power I wanted to focus on with this technique as it is its effortless way it is achieved in regular play. So much more comes into play for a break shot and many things get absurdly exaggerated. Take the involvement of his shoulder for example...that is there on every shot, otherwise his elbow wouldn't bob up and down slightly and his cue wouldn't have a vertical wobble. The physics is the same, just less obvious to onlookers.
 
Wobbly
I wish you would use spaces and paragraphs
Whatever you have to offer
Will not be read by many people like me
Who see that wall of words and move on to the next post
No disrespect intended
 
Wobbly
I wish you would use spaces and paragraphs
Whatever you have to offer
Will not be read by many people like me
Who see that wall of words and move on to the next post
No disrespect intended
I agree, and I've said that before here from time to time. If you're going to write a post, why not consider the people reading it? Isn't that why you're writing it in the first place --- for people to read?
 
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Ye Ur right. I guess I can take an extra min to edit a post and make it more pleasing to the eye.
Usually just rattle off a bunch of words as if speaking to someone without much regard for grammar or presentation figuring if one is interested in the content they wont be deterred by missing spaces and commas. But I get ur point.
 
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Perhaps somebody can explain this. Most people slide into position to put tip at address position. A few people when setting up will sort of wave shaft pass cue ball and then slide into position. What point on the butt those people are most likely holding, 90 to cue or less?
Yes, most players get down into the stance then slide in with the tip (if that's what you meant in your post). Most pros do not. The sliding in can destroy those good upper and lower arm angles.

I invite some students to practice standing closer to the cue ball at address and to come down right atop the cue ball with a small tip gap. This one change can help many people play better instead of lunging toward the cue ball with all sorts of stroke and stroke timing issues.
 
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