Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please

M

MikeJanis

Banned
Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please.

The new recent trend is a player that refuses to rack for him or herself and/or the opponent and wants a neutral racker ( This has been happening many times near the finals of events ). I like the idea of neutral racker's but very few TD/promoters, including myself have a budget for this extra help so to combat this I am considering initiating a new rule stating that if you refuse to rack, you forfeit the match. Exceptions will be given to Physically Handicapped players that participate in our events.


What opinions do you have on the above stated proposed new rule ?

It should also be duly noted that we are absolutely not going to the Rack-Your-Own Rule.
 
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MikeJanis said:
Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please.

The new recent trend is a player that refuses to rack for him or herself and/or the opponent and wants a neutral racker ( This has been happening many times near the finals of events ). I like the idea of neutral racker's but very few TD/promoters, including myself have a budget for this extra help so to combat this I am considering initiating a new rule stating that if you refuse to rack, you forfeit the match. Exceptions will be given to Physically Handicapped players that participate in our events.


What opinions do you have on the above stated proposed new rule ?
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I think you should get your ass out there and rack for everyone, all the time:rolleyes: Seriously, just make them rack their own, or forfeit.
 
"racking" is the downfall of pool imo... until someone invents a way to consistently rack balls without the 9 shooting straight in (see sardo) there will always be grumblings... let's just say at mobile this past weekend it was BRUTAL!!!
 
MikeJanis said:
Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please.

The new recent trend is a player that refuses to rack for him or herself and/or the opponent and wants a neutral racker ( This has been happening many times near the finals of events ). I like the idea of neutral racker's but very few TD/promoters, including myself have a budget for this extra help so to combat this I am considering initiating a new rule stating that if you refuse to rack, you forfeit the match. Exceptions will be given to Physically Handicapped players that participate in our events.


What opinions do you have on the above stated proposed new rule ?
Click to expand...

This doesn't affect me since I don't play in your events, but that seems fair to me. I mean, someone needs to get the balls racked. I'm curious though, what makes a player refuse to rack?
 
muttley76 said:
I think you should get your ass out there and rack for everyone, all the time:rolleyes: Seriously, just make them rack their own, or forfeit.
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Why we will not go to Rack-Your-Own rules. Just my opinion.


A: The rules have to be changed to not allow the 9-ball on the break for the win if it goes in the back corner pockets. This really takes the fun out of being a player and a spectator alike.

B: Ball placement. In Rack-Your-Own the player never seems to change the ball placement around in the rack. I know if I am racking I always look to see how my opponent is breaking and if there are any patterns in their ball position after the rack. When I start to notice patterns, as the racker I simply change the ball arrangement to adjust for the pattern. No matter what, I always do my best to give my opponent a fair rack not matter what knowledge I have and I expect the same in return.

As the racker or most times loser of the game I feel it should be my option to change the ball pattern instead of trying to manipulate the rack to give my opponent a bad rack. This seems fair.

C: Even with Racking-Your-Own Rules I have seen many players inspect the rack and have the opponent re-rack over and over again. It really doesn't matter who is racking when you come across a player like this. They are simply trying to shark/stall their opponent and gain a psychological advantage.
 
MikeJanis said:
Why we will not go to Rack-Your-Own rules. Just my opinion.


A: The rules have to be changed to not allow the 9-ball on the break for the win if it goes in the back corner pockets. This really takes the fun out of being a player and a spectator alike.

B: Ball placement. In Rack-Your-Own the player never seems to change the ball placement around in the rack. I know if I am racking I always look to see how my opponent is breaking and if there are any patterns in their ball position after the rack. When I start to notice patterns, as the racker I simply change the ball arrangement to adjust for the pattern. No matter what, I always do my best to give my opponent a fair rack not matter what knowledge I have and I expect the same in return.

As the racker or most times loser of the game I feel it should be my option to change the ball pattern instead of trying to manipulate the rack to give my opponent a bad rack. This seems fair.

C: Even with Racking-Your-Own Rules I have seen many players inspect the rack and have the opponent re-rack over and over again. It really doesn't matter who is racking when you come across a player like this. They are simply trying to shark/stall their opponent and gain a psychological advantage.
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I really wish you would spot the nine. I hate it. Also, you could try having a ten ball tourney. It is a hell of a lot harder to manipulate the rack in ten ball-Matt
 
muttley76 said:
I really wish you would spot the nine. I hate it. Also, you could try having a ten ball tourney. It is a hell of a lot harder to manipulate the rack in ten ball-Matt
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If you think open 9-ball events are down right now watch what happens when they move to 10-ball. The Amateur and Lower Open players have no shot in these events against better players and the current stats on 10-ball prove both.

Matt, work with me here. I do not want to change the structure and history of the game, I am just looking for opinins on this particular subject. Just a misconduct rule and nothing else.

It has not been iniated yet just considered.

Thanks,

Mj
 
muttley76 said:
I really wish you would spot the nine. I hate it. Also, you could try having a ten ball tourney. It is a hell of a lot harder to manipulate the rack in ten ball-Matt
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I agree. Or you could make the 9 on the break A LOSS! :shocked2: That'll keep it exciting while also giving incentive to make the 9 tight in rack-your-own. :rolleyes: :D

Or you could hire some sexy dancers to come out every time the 9-ball goes in on the break. I guarantee the spectators won't even notice that the 9-ball got spotted. :thumbup:
 
I am so confused by this post, is it; rack your own, or loser racks?

You could also solve part of the problem by making it alternating break, or is it already?
 
Joe Tucker

It seems with the introduction of Joe Tuckers racking secrets that life has become more miserable for 9 ball players. I agree that if you are playing rack your own then the bottom 2 pockets should not count for 9 on the break as we now know that a space behind the nineball and either ball behind it inevitably leads to a 9 on the break. If it is rack for each other then it is up to you to protect yourself by freezing these balls so it doesn't happen.

I really think life would be much easier for TD's to change all tourneys to 10 ball as I don't feel the racking is as much of an issue. And races to 7 should be sufficient enough, whereas in 9 ball everyone considers a race to 7 too short. No more wing balls or wired 9 balls. The Seminole rules of 10 on the break not counting and the 2 and 3 racked on the corners makes everything uniform and levels out the ability of those who have racking "skills". It is a rack your own tourney.

I have not yet to see a player refuse to rack for either himself or his opponent. I absolutely do not understand this "trend" or the advantages of it. Do these players who are using this trend generally rack for themselves or for each other in the tourney before getting near the finals???
 
fasteddienc said:
It seems with the introduction of Joe Tuckers racking secrets that life has become more miserable for 9 ball players. I agree that if you are playing rack your own then the bottom 2 pockets should not count for 9 on the break as we now know that a space behind the nineball and either ball behind it inevitably leads to a 9 on the break. If it is rack for each other then it is up to you to protect yourself by freezing these balls so it doesn't happen.

I really think life would be much easier for TD's to change all tourneys to 10 ball as I don't feel the racking is as much of an issue. And races to 7 should be sufficient enough, whereas in 9 ball everyone considers a race to 7 too short. No more wing balls or wired 9 balls. The Seminole rules of 10 on the break not counting and the 2 and 3 racked on the corners makes everything uniform and levels out the ability of those who have racking "skills". It is a rack your own tourney.

I have not yet to see a player refuse to rack for either himself or his opponent. I absolutely do not understand this "trend" or the advantages of it. Do these players who are using this trend generally rack for themselves or for each other in the tourney before getting near the finals???
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Eddie, unfortunately I do not see it being feasible to move the 9-ball events to 10-ball. It takes longer, the races have to be shorter and it really isn'tdesigned for quick paced weekend events in pool rooms.

Eddie, many times you see the TD or Ref racking the balls at regional tour events it is because a player usually refuses to rack or wants a neutral racker. It's not always a public issue. It is usually kept between the players and the TD on the sidelines.


Note: This is a discussion on 9-ball and racking. I am not trying to change the game or the current rules other than what was stated. While I welcome any and all opinions I hope we can keep it on-topic.
 
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In that case....

I think the rule is a good idea then. If you don't make the player rack either for himself or the opponent then you leave yourself open to many other problems. Then you get into who is/isn't a neutral racker. And then it gets to the point that one player might feel that the racks he/she receives are bad because they may assume that the racker is pulling for the opponent. Especially if when racking for the opponent 3 or 4 balls go consistently on the break. That person is not going to accept that maybe they are breaking from the wrong spot, they will assume partiality from the racker.

Picking a neutral racker might be like picking the jury for a murder trial. Who wants to deal with that??
 
if the person refused to rack it should be a forfeit... unless there are extenuating circumstances i suppose... like an injury or something
 
MikeJanis said:
Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please.

The new recent trend is a player that refuses to rack for him or herself and/or the opponent and wants a neutral racker ( This has been happening many times near the finals of events ). I like the idea of neutral racker's but very few TD/promoters, including myself have a budget for this extra help so to combat this I am considering initiating a new rule stating that if you refuse to rack, you forfeit the match. Exceptions will be given to Physically Handicapped players that participate in our events.


What opinions do you have on the above stated proposed new rule ?

It should also be duly noted that we are absolutely not going to the Rack-Your-Own Rule.
Click to expand...

After re-reading the initial post where you state that you will absolutely not be going to rack-your-own, I have to say that I empathize with the players that are refusing to rack.

While I have never refused to rack and I probably never would (unless it was an organized protest to induce a change in the rules ;)), I have noticed after educating myself on racking that there are too many players who simply suck at racking. There, I said it. :) And not all of them suck at playing either, to say the least.

What makes me think that they aren't just maliciously trying to slug rack me? Because when I make them rack their own, they slug rack themselves too! But guess what, they learn fast. At least they learn to make a non-slug fast, but I don't know about an actual good frozen rack.

It is not easy to rack on some tables. And until a player learns how to create adequately frozen rack, most players will just throw up whatever rack, maybe just looking at the front three balls (the 1 and the two balls behind it). And this is assuming that they actually even WANT to give their opponent a good rack.

Most people will never learn to rack well unless they are forced to break their own crappy rack, and forced to watch you run out after giving yourself a fair rack. Then they will get annoyed and defensive when the breaker asks them to fix their crappy rack.

So maybe the bad rackers are refusing to rack for those "anal" breakers (who really just want a decent rack), or maybe it's the good rackers who are tired of giving good racks and getting mud in return.

But I apologize for digressing; I know I'm not supposed to be making a case for rack-your-own, but that was all to explain why I think the forfeit rule may not be as fair as it seems.

After this long post, I'm sorry to say that I don't have a good solution under the given parameters, unless you have the ability to set up the cloth before the tournament with a tap template.
 
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Coin op, if the winner doesn't want to rack, then he/she must pay all the money in the coin slot. Me, I'd much rather rack for my opponent, it gives me constant involvement of some type within each game.
 
A smarter than me Azer sent me this in a PM.

Mike,
Am I correct that you are using World Standard Rules?
If so, just follow the rules, there is a penalty for 'delay of game' refusing to rack is "delay of game".

see rule
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
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I wish I would have thought of that.

Anonymous, if you want to claim this as yours I will reply stating yes it was your idea. And a good catch at that to.

Mj
 
Valid points Mike

MikeJanis said:
Why we will not go to Rack-Your-Own rules. Just my opinion.


A: The rules have to be changed to not allow the 9-ball on the break for the win if it goes in the back corner pockets. This really takes the fun out of being a player and a spectator alike.

B: Ball placement. In Rack-Your-Own the player never seems to change the ball placement around in the rack. I know if I am racking I always look to see how my opponent is breaking and if there are any patterns in their ball position after the rack. When I start to notice patterns, as the racker I simply change the ball arrangement to adjust for the pattern. No matter what, I always do my best to give my opponent a fair rack not matter what knowledge I have and I expect the same in return.

As the racker or most times loser of the game I feel it should be my option to change the ball pattern instead of trying to manipulate the rack to give my opponent a bad rack. This seems fair.

C: Even with Racking-Your-Own Rules I have seen many players inspect the rack and have the opponent re-rack over and over again. It really doesn't matter who is racking when you come across a player like this. They are simply trying to shark/stall their opponent and gain a psychological advantage.
Click to expand...

First, it's your tour. But I understand about wanting opinions. You'll never make everyone happy, but it's great that you would even ask the players and posters of the forum. There are problems with rack your own, just as when having your opponent rack for you.
A very good friend of mine, who is a high level player, says he will rack the balls 3 times maximum if his opponent starts nit-picking the rack. Then tell him to rack his own. He will however, stand right there and watch for them to try anything.
I was playing a 9-ball match in Vegas last year, and the guy was pulling a ball out about half an inch in the back part of the rack. I normally don't check racks, but it was someone I didn't trust and I was on the hill. I asked him to put the ball back into the rack, and he tried to pull it back out with me standing right there watching him rack.
Goes to show, you will always have a few trying the monkey business.
As for placement, we have discussed this on the forum a few times. While some people here believe it's unfair, I believe I have a right to place the balls in the rack in any order I want, as long as the rack is tight.
If both people agree to rack their own, and they don't start that picking/sharking stuff, there's nothing wrong with that. Most people will rack fair, play fair, and treat people the right way. But as for the ones you catch, doing the sharking and bad racking, {and it don't take long to figure them out}, when the problem arises, you may need to ask a reputable player to rack for that match. Maybe give offending players a warning for first offenses. Then a forfeit of that match. It usually turns out to be just a few players, that always cause problems with that type of thing.
 
MikeJanis said:
A smarter than me Azer sent me this in a PM.



I wish I would have thought of that.

Anonymous, if you want to claim this as yours I will reply stating yes it was your idea. And a good catch at that to.

Mj
Click to expand...

But which player is delaying the game? The one who cannot/will not give a good rack, or the one who stands up for himself and demands one?
 
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