Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please
- Thread starter MikeJanis
- Start date
As for refusing to rack at all
The only time I have ever refused to rack for someone, is when they start trying to make rack the balls dead perfect on a bar table with worn cloth. It's a shark move to keep you leaning across the table. It stresses my back, and after a couple of try's, I'll tell em' to rack their own.
If a guy just refuses, the earlier post makes sense, delay of game.
Island Drive said:
The only time I have ever refused to rack for someone, is when they start trying to make rack the balls dead perfect on a bar table with worn cloth. It's a shark move to keep you leaning across the table. It stresses my back, and after a couple of try's, I'll tell em' to rack their own.
If a guy just refuses, the earlier post makes sense, delay of game.
Island Drive said:
My only involvement!
There's a bit of a loophole, if you will, in that rule in that if a player refuses even a good rack, and continues to ask for a re-rack, then it puts the racking player in a position of either having to oblige or forfeit.
If you're dealing with players who are the type of people who will go to other lengths to shark their opponents, I wouldn't think they'd draw the line here.
Perhaps you could stipulate that the racking player can call the TD over to inspect the rack and the TD could then make the call on whether or not it's acceptable. I realize it's more work for the TD, but a rule that basically says, "do this or forfeit", can (and probably will) be taken advantage of.
As for not liking rack-your-own, there's a counter argument to anything that anyone could possibly bring up against that rule. We rack our own here, 9 (or 10) doesn't count in the bottom two pockets, and almost NEVER have any issues concerning the rack.
If you're dealing with players who are the type of people who will go to other lengths to shark their opponents, I wouldn't think they'd draw the line here.
Perhaps you could stipulate that the racking player can call the TD over to inspect the rack and the TD could then make the call on whether or not it's acceptable. I realize it's more work for the TD, but a rule that basically says, "do this or forfeit", can (and probably will) be taken advantage of.
As for not liking rack-your-own, there's a counter argument to anything that anyone could possibly bring up against that rule. We rack our own here, 9 (or 10) doesn't count in the bottom two pockets, and almost NEVER have any issues concerning the rack.
MikeJanis said:
idea!!
GOT THE PROBLEM SOLVED!!!LETS ALL PICH IN AND GET SOME HOOTER GIRLS TO RACK???? WHAT SAY YEA?????:grin-square: :grin-square: :grin-square: :grin-square:muttley76 said:I think you should get your ass out there and rack for everyone, all the timeSeriously, just make them rack their own, or forfeit.
Cuebacca said:LOL, sorry Mike.
No, no, no, I'm just in a pissy mood. (kids/family crap) Sorry about that. Please stay in the conversation.
As for your question:
Cuebacca said:
There usually comes a time when the TD comes in or is brought in and the TD make a decision if it's an acceptable rack and then the player has to break or forfeit.
Mj
MikeJanis said:
Thanks, don't worry...no offense taken.
I can understand wanting to keep the thread on topic.I think if you are set on rack-for-each-other, then what you said in this post would be the way to go; have the racker call the TD over if he feels that the breaker is unjustly being too picky about the rack. TD gets the final say. I still have some dead horses to beat about rack-your-own, but I'll save that for another thread. :grin-square:
nude
CANT GET THE HOOTERS, BUT GOT MATTAND SOUTHPAW IN G STRINGS!!! how that??? HA NO MIKE GET IN TOUCH WITH ME ON THE JR, AND I WILL SEE IF I CAN HELP, TALKING LOUD AS I DONT HEAR WELL!!!!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:MikeJanis said:Stick, send you donation to my PayPal account.
I have refused to rack for my opponent when there are rules against tapping balls. You shouldn't force someone to give a bad rack that repeatedly results in a 9 or 10 straight in the corner, or a bad slug rack. Getting the balls frozen would ultimately be the tournament director's job if it can't be done by the players.
I think your rule is fine. I don't know what rule set you use...or a hybrid...but refusal to abide by rules is, among other things, unsportsmanlike conduct and can be penalized in any manner you wish from a warning to loss of game, or match or ejection from the event.
Where I would side with the players re: either rack your own or self rack is that the non-racking player must have the right to object and call in a TD to rule on the rack...require a re-rack or rack himself.
But a warning could and should issue to the racking player that repeated valid re-rack rulings will cost him the game.
Of course in regional events where the balls/cloth/spots are not brand new, it is often impossible to get a rack with zero gaps.
That presents a TOUGH problem and one for which I have no particularly good solution except neutral rackers.
If the players simply cannot achieve a tight rack then one possible idea is to ask for volunteer neutral rackers from among the players who are between matches with both competitors having a veto if they think the racker would be biased.
Personally, I rather play rack boy for a while than sit on my ass tightening up until my next match.
Regards,
Jim
Where I would side with the players re: either rack your own or self rack is that the non-racking player must have the right to object and call in a TD to rule on the rack...require a re-rack or rack himself.
But a warning could and should issue to the racking player that repeated valid re-rack rulings will cost him the game.
Of course in regional events where the balls/cloth/spots are not brand new, it is often impossible to get a rack with zero gaps.
That presents a TOUGH problem and one for which I have no particularly good solution except neutral rackers.
If the players simply cannot achieve a tight rack then one possible idea is to ask for volunteer neutral rackers from among the players who are between matches with both competitors having a veto if they think the racker would be biased.
Personally, I rather play rack boy for a while than sit on my ass tightening up until my next match.
Regards,
Jim
The below was sent to me via email.
Mike, I don't have the privledges to post on az yet but I read your post and would like to offer a suggestion.
I worked for a racing series about six years ago and one of the ways that they scored was they had a timer on the fence and a person from each race team. They would write the number down once that car passed the start/finish line. If a race team did not have a score keeper then we would find someone in the audience who was willing to make $35 for a hour worth of work. If said car wrecks on third lap and is out of the race the team is still obligated to pay the full $35.
My suggestion is this allow the person who refuses to rack a chance to appoint a racker or force them to pay someone from the audience or from the tour to rack for them. Force them to pay per match. I know different people rack differently but that comes as a consequence of refusing.
Just a thought but it's your tour, your call.
Thank you for your suggestions. I hope AZ gets you on board soon.
Mj
Mike, I don't have the privledges to post on az yet but I read your post and would like to offer a suggestion.
I worked for a racing series about six years ago and one of the ways that they scored was they had a timer on the fence and a person from each race team. They would write the number down once that car passed the start/finish line. If a race team did not have a score keeper then we would find someone in the audience who was willing to make $35 for a hour worth of work. If said car wrecks on third lap and is out of the race the team is still obligated to pay the full $35.
My suggestion is this allow the person who refuses to rack a chance to appoint a racker or force them to pay someone from the audience or from the tour to rack for them. Force them to pay per match. I know different people rack differently but that comes as a consequence of refusing.
Just a thought but it's your tour, your call.
Thank you for your suggestions. I hope AZ gets you on board soon.
Mj
MikeJanis said:
I say again...it is your tour and I assume the rules are available prior to the posting of entry fee money.
If players enter, they are agreeing to abide by the rules and if they refuse, they should get penalized. But as I said, I can't imagine that you couldn't get other players and/or experienced audience to rack if asked to.
Besides, if the 9 on the break spotted as it SHOULD be, then at least some of the racking issues should go away!
And I don't want to hear about strong breaks getting rewarded. Draining the 9 is a 30 or 35-1 shot with a proper rack...for PROS...so it is essentially PURE LUCK and should NOT be rewarded!
Finally, especially with well-used balls and cloth, tapping should be allowed. If it results in nesting the balls at least there is consistency vs. various balls being loose depending on the order in which they are racked.
If the wing ball goes every time, it goes for both players of equal breaking skill and that's a better outcome than the 9 moving toward the corner every time and/or getting slugged.
(-:
Jim
From another forum here is an explanation, of the latest events that raised the awareness of this situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwd72s
Thanks for explaining...just a student of the game here. Allowing the option of players agreeing to rack your own sounds fair to me...
Mj's response:
I thought it was a fair rule to until a few weeks ago when Wiseman didn't want Corey to Rack his own (rule defaulted to W-Breaks, L-Racks) then Corey decided he didn't want to rack period. It was more of a headache than it was worth.
There is more to the story than that. I racked for Wiseman's breaks and Wiseman racked for Corey's breaks. Mj always like being in the spotlight and at the time I thought it was the best decision. Looking back, I don't think even a TD should be put in that position, Corey should have racked or been forfeited. Oh well, I will chalk that one up to experience.
In the past what usually happens in this situation is I, the TD racks for both players. The problem at that event was Wiseman wanted to rack but Corey didn't and it was very petty on CD's part.
This happened in the finals of a true double elimination event. Wiseman was on the W side and Deuel was on the L side. Deuel had to win to sets to win the match. Deuel won the 1st set and Wiseman won the 2nd set to win the event.
Mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwd72s
Thanks for explaining...just a student of the game here. Allowing the option of players agreeing to rack your own sounds fair to me...
Mj's response:
I thought it was a fair rule to until a few weeks ago when Wiseman didn't want Corey to Rack his own (rule defaulted to W-Breaks, L-Racks) then Corey decided he didn't want to rack period. It was more of a headache than it was worth.
There is more to the story than that. I racked for Wiseman's breaks and Wiseman racked for Corey's breaks. Mj always like being in the spotlight and at the time I thought it was the best decision. Looking back, I don't think even a TD should be put in that position, Corey should have racked or been forfeited. Oh well, I will chalk that one up to experience.
In the past what usually happens in this situation is I, the TD racks for both players. The problem at that event was Wiseman wanted to rack but Corey didn't and it was very petty on CD's part.
This happened in the finals of a true double elimination event. Wiseman was on the W side and Deuel was on the L side. Deuel had to win to sets to win the match. Deuel won the 1st set and Wiseman won the 2nd set to win the event.
Mj
MikeJanis said:
I can see the logic of the TD or his designated person racking for the finals.
If one player doesn't like it...he can either lump it or take home 2nd place money...end of event...end of story and everyone can go home a little earlier.
(-:
I ADMIRE all you go through to try to contribute to pro player's income. Has CD ever smacked you on the forehead like he reportedly did to Charlie in JAX?
Does he have a 3rd dan black belt? He would need it...and a carry permit...if he bopped some guys that I know!!!!
(-:
Jim
Jim