PRACTICE VS PLAY

[WobblyStroke]

It will serve you well to stop weighing in on when I try to help players because you don't understand my process. Don't make assumptions about what I know and don't know. If you have a question, then ask it but don't jump to conclusions about me or, yes, I will come at you hard. You don't help players by focusing solely on theory and ignoring other very important signs they give. Until you start to understand the person asking the question and have looked both in and OUT of the box for solutions, you are nothing more than a theorist. That's what makes you an armchair expert.

Fran, did it occur to you that more people are coming to this thread for the very same advice the poster is asking about. You think they wouldn't benefit from more general theory that applies to the vast majority of people rather than being tailored to one individual?

I can't believe you're actually defending your absurd statement. If anyone is making wild assumptions about someone else it's you.

As I said already, just DM this nonsense, nobody comes to this forum for petty back and forths.

 

[bbb]

i try to stay out of other peoples fight because usually no good deed goes unpunished
but since this is my thread i feel i have to say something to you wobblystroke
your last sentence in the post above crossed the line to me.
it is blatantly disrespectful and you should apologize to fran for it. (jmho)
there are many ways to get points across without resorting to calling people out or making things personal
you do come off as pedantic yet i will give you credit for being knowledgeable.
your post #28 was unnecessary.
all you had to do was reference the studies on learning and said something to the effect
"research shows practice in small concentrated time periods yields better results than marathon sessions"
(which i know is well documented)
without referencing fran's posts and calling her out.
if you recall my first post said
"
I would be interested in the instructors opinion on
based on skill level
how much time percentage wise should one devote to practice vs play"
i bolded that part as i assumed the answers would be different for players at different stages.
anyway
thats all i have to say

 

[bbb]

i will also say to fran that you came on alittle strong in your attack to wobblystroke (jmho)
but you were defending yourself and that was after being provoked
so i give you the benefit of the doubt.
your post #32 was tactfull and should not have provoked the attack that came after

 

[WobblyStroke]

I don't know how #28 was outa line. I guess I could have just said it like you did and pretended I had no idea it was in direct contradiction to Fran's point. But even within that post I say it is a perfectly fine approach for an advanced player. Then I lay out what someone still building their skills should do instead.

But how is #32 tactful and unworthy of a response when she literally calls me an armchair expert leading people astray as if I don't know what I'm talking about when she's the one that's suggesting something contrary to accepted facts about learning? No need to answer. Just confused about what was so tactful and innocent about her comment.

As for your comment on my last statement. You are right. I edited it to reflect I'm as much at fault as she is for engaging in this. But let's not muddy the waters on who attacked whom. I had no gripe with Fran, just her idea and recommendation being unfounded in principles of learning. She attacked me. The opening statement was an explanation for why I was even responding to her as I recently told her I wouldn't after she was attacking me in another thread for 'trolling' her when all I did was call her out for being way outa line in attacking another coach personally while disparaging anyone who would listen to him when his statement was in fact 100% true. But I'm happy to go back to not responding to her. As in this case, I will only do it when I think she's really wrong. And she was. Nothing personal.

 

[WobblyStroke]

As far as for skill level, a lot of good stuff was said in here and imo it boils down to this...
The less skilled, the more of your time should be spent practicing.
Once very skilled, you can get away with a minimal amount and focus on playing more and getting your lessons there.

 

[bbb]

post #32 could have been directed at anyone......thats why i considered it tactfull
i can understand why you could feel it was directed at you wobblystroke.
my approach would have let it slide since you were not directly called out
but i am not you
plus wobblystroke i think by now you know i can sift thru the wheat and chaff

bbb....watch out for the armchair experts. They will lead you astray. They mean well....but....

at this point i propose we just move on and "bury the hatchet"

 

[bbb]

As far as for skill level, a lot of good stuff was said in here and imo it boils down to this...
The less skilled, the more of your time should be spent practicing.
Once very skilled, you can get away with a minimal amount and focus on playing more and getting your lessons there.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

bbb,my friend. You have received much good advice but I would like to suggest a different approach to increasing your FARGO 50 points. The next time you are in competition, look for situations where there is high possibility you may loose control of the table. Take photos of those situations your results. Analyze these later for strategic and tactical options. Post some of these here for professional analysis.
It will be interesting.

 

[tomatoshooter]

While I don't believe much that happens on the practice table can fully prepare you for a high pressure situation in competition, practice is crucial to developing your skills. There are a lot of shots that might come up once every three to four games. You are probably not going to get much better at those until you shoot them a few dozen times in a row. I get frustrated when my league team wants to "practice" because they do nothing but play games. That means I'm going to miss those shots and step away from the table, or try to play a tougher pattern that avoids the shot. But I'm not going to get better at that shot.

Tennesseejoe had an excellent point about identifying the trouble spots, one of the things I'm trying to focus on.

 

[WobblyStroke]

While I don't believe much that happens on the practice table can fully prepare you for a high pressure situation in competition, practice is crucial to developing your skills. There are a lot of shots that might come up once every three to four games. You are probably not going to get much better at those until you shoot them a few dozen times in a row. I get frustrated when my league team wants to "practice" because they do nothing but play games. That means I'm going to miss those shots and step away from the table, or try to play a tougher pattern that avoids the shot. But I'm not going to get better at that shot.

Tennesseejoe had an excellent point about identifying the trouble spots, one of the things I'm trying to focus on.

A solo game I like for this is just to play the ghost but when i miss, I set up the shot till I make it a few times (or the position shot prior which messed me up and left me a low percentage shot). Then continue the rack and if another error pops up, just hit that a few times too.

This gives you real rack spots that come up instead of some set shots. Plus you get a mini block of attempts at one of your problem shots and then move on to more varied practice.

In general, varied practice is superior to hitting the same shot over and over. This way gives you a nice mix of block sets of problem shots as well as the various different shots u have to hit in random racks.

You can of course just set up problem shots and hit a handful of one before moving on to another. you can always structure it like a fitness circuit where you attempt different shots like they are stations in your circuit. You may end up with 30 attempts, but u will get there 5 at a time with a bunch of other shots in between. This is much better for learning than 30 str8 imo. Depending on skill level, you may want to count the makes only rather than attempts.

 

[tomatoshooter]

A solo game I like for this is just to play the ghost but when i miss, I set up the shot till I make it a few times (or the position shot prior which messed me up and left me a low percentage shot). Then continue the rack and if another error pops up, just hit that a few times too.

I often do something similar. I'm not keeping score against the ghost and I don't usually continue the rack, but I use a scrimmage game to find a shot to practice. I like setting up 2 ball drills, so the shot I messed up, either through position or missing, and the next shot. sometimes I'll find a different path to get on the second ball. It's nice in a game when a shot comes up and I think "I shot this 30 times yesterday."

I also try to remember shots I missed in actual games to practice them.

 

[Coos Cues]

thanks for all the replies
i will try to answer some questions and give some reasons for my thread
i practice 1-3 hours most days.......... some days its more productive than others
i play onepocket with a very highly skilled player on sundays from 10-5 with a break for lunch
on some days that 1-3 hours is going to the pool room playing some 9 ball.
i try to enter the tournaments at my room whenever time permits
i would say right now my time is 85- 90% practice and 10-15 % play
to be continued

What is your current Fargo? Do you think it can raise by 50 points? How old are you?

When I first took instruction seriously my game improved quickly and substantially. But I was already deeply entrenched in decades of wasted time by then with the accompanying bad habits. And then there you are, better than you used to be but once again plateaued. Still not able to compete with top players.

If you practiced one to three hours most days and were 14 years old with solid instruction and moderate natural ability you could easily be high shortstop speed within a year. But alas decades later improvement comes much more slowly. Like learning a foreign language.

I practice way more than I play now days having a 9 foot diamond at home and a low tolerance for tournament "waiting to play" environments. As a consequence I often practice not to improve but to simply enjoy myself.

Coming to terms with what you want out of pool is the hardest part IMO. She is a cruel lover.

 

[bbb]

What is your current Fargo? Do you think it can raise by 50 points? How old are you?

When I first took instruction seriously my game improved quickly and substantially. But I was already deeply entrenched in decades of wasted time by then with the accompanying bad habits. And then there you are, better than you used to be but once again plateaued. Still not able to compete with top players.

If you practiced one to three hours most days and were 14 years old with solid instruction and moderate natural ability you could easily be high shortstop speed within a year. But alas decades later improvement comes much more slowly. Like learning a foreign language.

I practice way more than I play now days having a 9 foot diamond at home and a low tolerance for tournament "waiting to play" environments. As a consequence I often practice not to improve but to simply enjoy myself.

Coming to terms with what you want out of pool is the hardest part IMO. She is a cruel lover.

i am 70 years old/i do think i can raise my fargo by 50 points/my rating is 533 robustness 22
most of my local tourneys dont report the results
i have a win over a 673 (a fluke) and competitive matches with low 600's with some surprise wins
like you i dont enjoy "waiting to play " environments
also i would rather play 1 pocket than 9 ball as i get to use my brain more which i think gives me an advantage over many opponents with perhaps sharper shooting skills

 

[JolietJames]

I just stumbled into this thread and would like to thank the OP and all contributors.
There is a lot of valuable information in here.
I was a student of Bert's for a couple years maybe 20-25 years ago and have had no instruction since.
I struggle with keeping the same focus on a match as I do in practice like so many amateurs.
I typically beat up on the 9ball ghost on my 9' table, but my level of play at the local roomm with 9' tables is probably 2 balls lower.
My table is new, clean, and has bright lighting which provides better playing conditions no doubt.
In money games, I have a win rate of roughly 75%, (I may get a game every couple weeks), but I do not play nearly my best pool.
I will be trying the breathing techniques suggested and getting out more often to play on other equipment and against opponents.

My contribution:

The only thing I have found that simulates match pressure to any degree is multi-ball, patterned, drills.
I find Bert's Middle Game drill to ramp up pressure when you get down to those last couple balls.
There are other, tougher drills out there that I am sure will do the same.
My practice routine usually consists of 3 successful attempts at each drill before moving to the next one.
Since I have time constraints, I cannot spend all day on the drills. The thought of having to start over after running the first 10 balls DOES add some match-like pressure.

Thanks for all of the information shared and multiple views on the subject.
I have found value in reading them all.
Great thread.

 

[Coos Cues]

Well, if you practice one day per week like I suggested, you'll have plenty of practice for the week. How many hours in a day? Start in the morning, break for lunch --- take several breaks if you have to --- and continue into the afternoon. You could get a good 6-8 hours of practice in and you could work on all the things you wrote down from playing other people all week. Isn't that better than practicing 2 hours a day for 4 days? You'll be too tired to play matches after 2 hours of practice. It's a different mindset. Time management is key here.

My boyfriend used to say, "I'm going to the pool room to practice today." And he'd return 12 hours later. All practice. Then it was back to playing.

If you're too tired to play matches after practicing for two hours how are you not to tired to practice properly?

I have been told by a few respected pool teachers that practicing right is way more productive than practicing long and wrong. When you get tired you will probably not practice right. Not saying it's not possible but few have the discipline. The ones that do are what we novices call "professionals". Some people just have the drive but not many.

30 minutes of practice using proper fundamentals and concentration will trump sheer time put in out there in the vast world of amateur pool. I know this by the way I regularly defeat scores of players who practically live at and for the pool table table.

 

[BasementDweller]

One thing I've found interesting about Stephen Hendry's videos (the ones where he shoots a frame of snooker with another player) is there's a lot of discussion about how those snooker guys practice or practiced. Several of them, Steve Davis included, have looked back at their careers and determined they practiced too much! Both of them, think it may have burned them out early, as opposed to O'Sullivan who is more of a player than a rigorous practice and drill guy. There was another current player, who's name I can't recall, who sort of rolled his eyes at the idea of how long current pros are said to practice. He explained how a 6 hour practice session doesn't ever REALLY happen. His contention was there's a lot of exaggeration when it comes to practice routines. With a lot of breaks and chill time. I do think we paint this super-human picture of top players being able to practice for hours on end day after day, and year after year, but our picture may be a bit blurry and it's likely they are really more playing than practicing.

In sports it does seem like there are two paths to success. In soccer, there's the German approach vs the Brazilian approach. I'm sort of just guessing here but it seems like this from the outside looking in....a lot of kids in Brazil (and Central and South America in general) play unorganized soccer all the time. While in Germany they are playing very structured soccer with technical coaching from the beginning. Now all great players end up near the same place, and the real elites all end up playing club soccer early on, but there's something to be said about just totally being immersed into a sport or game and just playing it. In pool, psychologically -- playing is the only way you can put in the necessary hours. Drills can shorten the learning curve but pure time at the table is tough to beat.

Going back to my soccer comparison, pool is similar when you compare the Europeans to the Filipinos. I have this mental image of the Filipinos playing non-stop pool vs the Europeans practicing, drilling, and competing. Both seem to get close to the same place.

 

[FranCrimi]

If you're too tired to play matches after practicing for two hours how are you not to tired to practice properly?

I have been told by a few respected pool teachers that practicing right is way more productive than practicing long and wrong. When you get tired you will probably not practice right. Not saying it's not possible but few have the discipline. The ones that do are what we novices call "professionals". Some people just have the drive but not many.

30 minutes of practice using proper fundamentals and concentration will trump sheer time put in out there in the vast world of amateur pool. I know this by the way I regularly defeat scores of players who practically live at and for the pool table table.

I have the gall to say that I am a respected pool teacher --- and I don't agree with the idea that once you are tired only bad things can happen. Some people would say that it's an excuse to practice less. I think that once you are exhausted, then bad things can happen, but not tired. My personal gym trainer used to say to me that 'tired' is no excuse, and I agree. Many players are tense for at least the first hour or so, when they first get on the table.

The only exception is if you're in dead stroke. A half-hour to work on a few things will work out fine, since you're right where you need to be at the table as soon as you get there.