problems with weekly 9ball tournaments

[Jack Flanagan]

a friend of mine summed it up pretty good years,,,in a handicap pool system, you've got two kinds of people, (1) cheaters and (2) losers...covers a lot of other competitive events, too,,,LOL

 

[jjinfla]

Keep in mind that FREE is worth every penny you paid for it.

Jake

 

[chefjeff]

Go to the $13 Friday tournaments for sure.

We have a couple of similar tournaments [cost wise] in my area. And guess who shows up? The *very* best players! I've seen some players who frequently win other tournaments walk in, take a look at who is there, learn how much it costs, and walk out.

I'm lucky if I can win one game at one of these more expensive tournaments.

I have frequently not won one single game and been two matches and out.

But I have been watching these players and learning how they beat me. I'm learning lots. Last time I played, I think I won 2 matches and maybe 5 or 6 games (race to two), so I'm improving.

There are fewer players there, but they are all top players. Make *one* mistake, and you are history! And sometimes just the flip of a coin will determine the winner as they will break and run out.

But this is the tournament I look forward to the most. The tournament I want to go to the most. And I always get my rear end kicked big time! But I learn the most there.

tap tap tap

It sounds like you're really on track, Billy Bob, and this is good advice, imho.

Play the best you can afford to play, as often as possible...if you wanna get better, anyway.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

The above post was from Businessman Teacherman. This post is from Pool Player Teacherman.

<snip>
I really don't see room for compromise.

Now Businessman Teacherman and Pool Player Teacherman have merged into one Teacherman who prefers the general public.

Very interesting posts from Teacherman. Very telling. Thank you for taking your valuable time to post here. Pool experience integrated with business sure highlights what's really happening in the pool world.

"Compromise" means both sides usually lose, not win. "Profits" mean both sides usually win, not lose. Profit making is a system that sustains the ready supply of the things one wants.

Want tournaments?...pay for what you receive and there'll be more good ones than you can attend.

Jeff Livingston

 

[DaveK]

Sorry Skeezicks but there is no handicap system that works.

Generally speaking I agree, handicapping systems in pool are very problematic. However my 'home' hall runs a good league that some may find appealing. It's a singles 9 Ball league broken into tiers. All of the best players are in the top (A+ ?) tier, below that is an 'A' league (I'm in the middle of that one), then a B, and a C. The hall manager is an excellent player (Canadian Open Snooker Champion) and he is pretty good at placing the players and setting up competitive divisions. He has no qualms about moving someone up if needed, nor making season-to-season adjustments to the tiers to suit that seasons participation. Within the tiers there are no handicaps, just a race to 9 even up. None of that handicap manipulation BS. Of course many of the players have been beating at each other with sticks for 20 or 30 years, so it's hard to fool most of them We live in a small world here.

They also run a weekly $13 handicapped 9 Ball tourney, I think it does OK but not great. However they also have a couple of what you might consider 'regional' tournaments with more considerable prize money (attracts people like Edwin Montal, Bernie M, Erik H), and they do quite well with these events. Many players show up early (yes, I said EARLY !!!!) to get in on the breakfast special. A lot of our top players will bring their families to the events, so there are a lot more people in the hall than just the players, and they do consume the halls wares. It's quite a sight ! I should mention that we are in an area where the competition between pool tournaments is non-existant, so the response to most is good to very good. I can see in larger cities where there might be more cherry-picking by the better players which could leave a sour taste in a room owners mouth.

Dave

 

[Teacherman]

Vapoolplayer

I have some things to offer for consideration regarding an organized amateur pool system.

First, Pool Rooms only. No bars allowed. IMHO bar pool and bar pool league is one of the biggest factors holding pool back. Define pool room by 15 or more tables.

Association of Pool Room owners with a system of league and tournament play. State Championships which lead to a National Championship.

4 levels/divisions. Trophy, Ladies, Open, Masters.

Each member room has their league play. At the end of the year/session one team from each pool room is entered into the masters, ladies, and open divisions for state and national play. 5 best is your masters team. Next best 5 is your open team. 5 best ladies form ladies team. Any and all the rest can form teams of 5 to play in the trophy division. As many trophy teams as you like.

50 states....10 pool rooms per state.....500 pool rooms involved total. $400 entry fee per team (comes out of their weekly fees which I recommend at $50 per team per week for 15 weeks; each team would pay $750 for the session of which $350 stays for local prize money and $400 to national money). If each pool room entered 1 team in each division (4 divisions) that would be 2000 teams. At $400 each that's $800,000 total prize money. $200,000 prize money for masters division. How does $50,000 first prize sound. $200,000 for open. $200,000 for ladies division. No prize money in trophy division. Remaining $200,000 to singles events, doubles, trophies, administration etc.

Handicaps used locally if you wish but everything is scratch at the state and national level. Heavy emphasis on instruction and improvement.

Identify your 15 best players. Have them represent you as they play in state and national tournaments. May the best room with the best players win.

Got 10 rooms in Va?

POOL ROOM OWNERS................LETS TAKE OUR SPORT BACK FROM THE BARS AND OTHER LEAGUE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO NOT REPRESENT US WELL......IN FACT THEY HOLD OUR SPORT BACK.

Off my soap box now.

 

[vapoolplayer]

POOL ROOM OWNERS................LETS TAKE OUR SPORT BACK FROM THE BARS AND OTHER LEAGUE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO NOT REPRESENT US WELL......IN FACT THEY HOLD OUR SPORT BACK.

Off my soap box now.

this i DEFINITELY agree on. i HATE playing in bars. now i don't mean pool halls that have a bar i'm talking about dives. the places that are solely their for a bar and have a couple bar tables in the back that have had one to many beers spilled on them.

thank you for posting in this teacherman, i'm considering trying to open a room and all this is very helpful.

thanks

VAP

 

[BazookaJoe]

The above post was from Businessman Teacherman. This post is from Pool Player Teacherman.

I got into the business because of my interest in the game. I like to think my business is pool, not bar. Atlthough, lately it has started to learn toward bar as we're suffering from the down cycle of pool.

At one time I had 50+ pool teams playing out of my place every week. Instruction was regular. Players improved. You could feel an interest in the game as a hobby. I coached a National Champion at the Junior level and played a role in several top 10 finishes of other juniors. Another junior that frequented my room won a National Championship. Another frequent player won the NCAA tournament. We had a couple of National Championship teams in the Ladies and Trophy division. A team got 2nd in the Open Division in an unbelievable match with a team from Spain. Several teams have placed in the money over the years. Several high finishes in singles. 2nd in the nation in Scotch Doubles. Many of those players now play in regional events and compete very well.

We had the best league in town, all in house. We paid $10,000 first place 3 times per year. About $25,000 total prize money 3 times per year. We had a 9ball tour (regular monthly tournament with immediate prize money and an annual prize fund for top point winners). We had quite a system going.

And it all came to slow death as the greed of players showed it's ugly face. Handicaps were a constant argument. Sandbagging attempts were disgusting. Of the 50+ teams, realistically, 5 or 6 had a chance at first prize. The others were "entry fees". (little chance to win; might cash though)

Guess what the good teams made up of good players did to me. It wasn't good enough to win it ($10,000) now and then and finish top 4 or 5 the rest of the time. ($1000 - $3000) They not only had to win, they had to MF the "entry fee" teams to the point they would quit. Not good enough to beat them on league night. They also had to MF them, stomp them into the ground and make them feel like they didn't want to play anymore.

So as we worked our ass off recruiting new teams (generally beginning players; easy prey for the good teams) bringing them in the front door, my serious teams were MFing them and running them out the back door.

Little by little the league loses ground and now we're down to 20 or so teams. I pay less prize money intentionally. Don't really want those players back.

I really don't see room for compromise.

Now Businessman Teacherman and Pool Player Teacherman have merged into one Teacherman who prefers the general public.

Well now
Someone DOES run a bar and not a pool room.
And, if you had used an organized league, with handicaps, and skill level limits, then you wouldn't have run off the beginners.
Silly man!
How did you think it would wind up?
You screwed it up. It was your league, so don't blame it on anyone else.
What do you expect good players to do? Dump so you can bring in business?

 

[Jersey]

Bravo!

Vapoolplayer

I have some things to offer for consideration regarding an organized amateur pool system.

First, Pool Rooms only. No bars allowed. IMHO bar pool and bar pool league is one of the biggest factors holding pool back. Define pool room by 15 or more tables.

Association of Pool Room owners with a system of league and tournament play. State Championships which lead to a National Championship.

4 levels/divisions. Trophy, Ladies, Open, Masters.

Each member room has their league play. At the end of the year/session one team from each pool room is entered into the masters, ladies, and open divisions for state and national play. 5 best is your masters team. Next best 5 is your open team. 5 best ladies form ladies team. Any and all the rest can form teams of 5 to play in the trophy division. As many trophy teams as you like.

50 states....10 pool rooms per state.....500 pool rooms involved total. $400 entry fee per team (comes out of their weekly fees which I recommend at $50 per team per week for 15 weeks; each team would pay $750 for the session of which $350 stays for local prize money and $400 to national money). If each pool room entered 1 team in each division (4 divisions) that would be 2000 teams. At $400 each that's $800,000 total prize money. $200,000 prize money for masters division. How does $50,000 first prize sound. $200,000 for open. $200,000 for ladies division. No prize money in trophy division. Remaining $200,000 to singles events, doubles, trophies, administration etc.

Handicaps used locally if you wish but everything is scratch at the state and national level. Heavy emphasis on instruction and improvement.

Identify your 15 best players. Have them represent you as they play in state and national tournaments. May the best room with the best players win.

Got 10 rooms in Va?

POOL ROOM OWNERS................LETS TAKE OUR SPORT BACK FROM THE BARS AND OTHER LEAGUE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO NOT REPRESENT US WELL......IN FACT THEY HOLD OUR SPORT BACK.

Off my soap box now.

Teacherman,

I have to say that I honestly agree with you most of the time, I know you get under some peoples skin here...and you can be pushy but, here I think you have the answer...

I was introduced to League Play 2 yrs ago, (been playing for 25+),...we played out of a bar, (APA)..and I hated it!...finally took over the team and moved immediately to a local room, (Mr. Cue's II in ATL),played in-house APA... atmosphere, equiptment and competition immediately improved...support of your local rooms is the only way to go fellow AZB'ers...

Your 'ORGANIZED' room owned league is the best idea I have seen posted here by anyone concerning the taking back of Pool by Room Owners and Players!

This would make the 'Industry' have to court us instead of the other way around...it puts the bargining power back into the hands of local business owners and the patrons that they cater to, and that support them...

 

[Rackin_Zack]

Vapoolplayer

I have some things to offer for consideration regarding an organized amateur pool system.

First, Pool Rooms only. No bars allowed. IMHO bar pool and bar pool league is one of the biggest factors holding pool back. Define pool room by 15 or more tables.

Association of Pool Room owners with a system of league and tournament play. State Championships which lead to a National Championship.

4 levels/divisions. Trophy, Ladies, Open, Masters.

Each member room has their league play. At the end of the year/session one team from each pool room is entered into the masters, ladies, and open divisions for state and national play. 5 best is your masters team. Next best 5 is your open team. 5 best ladies form ladies team. Any and all the rest can form teams of 5 to play in the trophy division. As many trophy teams as you like.

50 states....10 pool rooms per state.....500 pool rooms involved total. $400 entry fee per team (comes out of their weekly fees which I recommend at $50 per team per week for 15 weeks; each team would pay $750 for the session of which $350 stays for local prize money and $400 to national money). If each pool room entered 1 team in each division (4 divisions) that would be 2000 teams. At $400 each that's $800,000 total prize money. $200,000 prize money for masters division. How does $50,000 first prize sound. $200,000 for open. $200,000 for ladies division. No prize money in trophy division. Remaining $200,000 to singles events, doubles, trophies, administration etc.

Handicaps used locally if you wish but everything is scratch at the state and national level. Heavy emphasis on instruction and improvement.

Identify your 15 best players. Have them represent you as they play in state and national tournaments. May the best room with the best players win.

Got 10 rooms in Va?

POOL ROOM OWNERS................LETS TAKE OUR SPORT BACK FROM THE BARS AND OTHER LEAGUE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO NOT REPRESENT US WELL......IN FACT THEY HOLD OUR SPORT BACK.

Off my soap box now.

This is a fantastic idea! I play in some in-house leagues in the two pool halls here that I frequent (Columbia Billiards and Rack & Roll Billiards) and have played in APA and TAP leagues. I much prefer the in-house leagues to the bar leagues. Plus, they're played on the big tables!

However, the 15 table limit I don't know about. Billiards of Columbia only has 12 GCIIs and I'm pretty sure it is a pool room.

 

[BazookaJoe]

This is a fantastic idea! I play in some in-house leagues in the two pool halls here that I frequent (Columbia Billiards and Rack & Roll Billiards) and have played in APA and TAP leagues. I much prefer the in-house leagues to the bar leagues. Plus, they're played on the big tables!

However, the 15 table limit I don't know about. Billiards of Columbia only has 12 GCIIs and I'm pretty sure it is a pool room.

I am sure you think this is a fantastic idea.
But, consider this
#1 Without a handicap system, all you have to do is load up a team with the best players and you are guaranteed to win the $.
#2 Teach tried it at a local level and couldn't make it work. So what makes you think it would work on a larger scale?
#3 Room owners are in business to make money. To do this you must bring in as many people as possible. I do not think many teams would hang around long after getting trounced by the team of heavy hitters every week of the first session.
#4 If you only did the nationals (without the failing regionals), how many of these "always broke" pool players would have the money to do the traveling and pay the entry fee? Isn't that what regional tours are for? But guy's like Teacherman want nothing to do with regional tours.

Nationally organized leagues are the way to go for room owners. Everyone can participate, and though a couple of lucky wins by a 3 over a 7 may happen occasionally, a 7 should have the better winning record (That's why he/she is a 7)

The APA started one night a week at Chattanooga Billiard Club. Now it's two nights a week with a BCA 9 ball league happening one night a week.
see www.cbcburns.com
Phil owns two very profitable and very popular rooms.
League play fills his place on what would normally be slow nights.
Everybody plays, and though there will always be a little bitching about handicaps, sandbagging, etc, everyone has a good time because they have a chance.
Now, take away those handicaps and see how full the place would be.
C'mon teach, argue with the Success of CBC.

 

[beetle]

this i DEFINITELY agree on. i HATE playing in bars. now i don't mean pool halls that have a bar i'm talking about dives. the places that are solely their for a bar and have a couple bar tables in the back that have had one to many beers spilled on them.

thank you for posting in this teacherman, i'm considering trying to open a room and all this is very helpful.

thanks

VAP

Neighborly advice: DO NOT to take advice from a failing and miserable pool hall operator! Look at the success stories like Hard Times for the recipe on how to do it. Remember this thread?

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=9526

Yeah, some failures there too (especially post #21!), but many more successes. You should be consulting with some of these people about their business plan.