Proposal: Implement a "call fouls on yourself" rule in pool

railbird99 said:
Secondly, if a person believes it's not their responsibility to call a foul on themselves, a rule isn't going to change that. Since the rule is not enforceable, they are still free to act on behalf of their own moral/ethical code, and use that a means of justification.
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Maybe where we disagree is that I believe a change in the rule can change a person's ethical code.

In my experience, most people who foul and just sit down without saying anything do so because they say the opponent has to pay attention, and if they fail to do so it's their loss. I don't believe they see themselves as cheating (most of them), that's just how they understand the rules and etiquette. But I believe that if the rule was changed, over time people would internalize the new approach.
 
Oh, and I don't see it as any less enforceable than other "deniable" unsportsmanlike conduct issues in pool, like sharking, delaying, or marking the table. If refs are available, they could use their judgment and discretion in giving a penalty. But I had more in mind league and local tournament situations, where t's more the social pressure to play by the rules than the actual penalties. I don't think these things have to be airtight to make a difference.

Here's a scenario: There was a close hit and you get up, your opponent just sits down. So you ask "was that a foul?" and they say yes. You say "this tournament uses a call your own fouls rule." Then it's over. If it keeps happening, maybe you go to the tournament director or league team captain or league manager, just like you might if someone was marking the table with their chalk and refused to stop, or sharking or delaying.
 
BRussell said:
Oh, and I don't see it as any less enforceable than other "deniable" unsportsmanlike conduct issues in pool, like sharking, delaying, or marking the table. If refs are available, they could use their judgment and discretion in giving a penalty. But I had more in mind league and local tournament situations, where t's more the social pressure to play by the rules than the actual penalties. I don't think these things have to be airtight to make a difference.

Here's a scenario: There was a close hit and you get up, your opponent just sits down. So you ask "was that a foul?" and they say yes. You say "this tournament uses a call your own fouls rule." Then it's over. If it keeps happening, maybe you go to the tournament director or league team captain or league manager, just like you might if someone was marking the table with their chalk and refused to stop, or sharking or delaying.
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Are you specifically referring to an APA scenario where this occurs or in house tournaments?
 
I've never played APA, and most of the tournaments I play use BCA rules I believe, so that's where I'm coming from.
 
BRussell said:
I've never played APA, and most of the tournaments I play use BCA rules I believe, so that's where I'm coming from.
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I don't play APA either but it sort of sounded like it from the threads I've read here. I play in house tournaments and matches and I haven't seen those problems as often as you obviously have. There are certain players that are over the top and pull stuff like that but the owners of the rooms I go to usually ban those guys from playing or warn them that stuff like that doesn't go here and are threatened with a banishment from the room.
 
philly said:
I don't play APA either but it sort of sounded like it from the threads I've read here. I play in house tournaments and matches and I haven't seen those problems as often as you obviously have. There are certain players that are over the top and pull stuff like that but the owners of the rooms I go to usually ban those guys from playing or warn them that stuff like that doesn't go here and are threatened with a banishment from the room.
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Wow, I'm pretty sure where I play no one would get banished for failing to call a foul on themselves, because it's considered within the rules.
 
BRussell said:
Oh, and I don't see it as any less enforceable than other "deniable" unsportsmanlike conduct issues in pool, like sharking, delaying, or marking the table. If refs are available, they could use their judgment and discretion in giving a penalty. But I had more in mind league and local tournament situations, where t's more the social pressure to play by the rules than the actual penalties. I don't think these things have to be airtight to make a difference.

Here's a scenario: There was a close hit and you get up, your opponent just sits down. So you ask "was that a foul?" and they say yes. You say "this tournament uses a call your own fouls rule." Then it's over. If it keeps happening, maybe you go to the tournament director or league team captain or league manager, just like you might if someone was marking the table with their chalk and refused to stop, or sharking or delaying.
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All of these "less enforceable" rules you are mentioning, such as sharking, have nothing to do with the rules. People refrain from sharking other players because their personal opinion is that it's unsportsmanlike, not because the rules forbid it. Guess what, sharking still happens all of the time.

You claim that honest people who currently believe that they are justified in not calling fouls will change their actions if a rule is added. So you think an honest person who does not shark their opponents would otherwise shark people if there was no rule against it? You think they read the rules before the tournament to determine if sharking is allowed or not, and then base their decision to shark on what the rule says? The rule is just a formality that has no real affect on a player's decision to act in such a way.
 
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It seems to me that if you could implement a rule that requires a player to call a foul on themselves, there would never be a way to enforce it without a referee seeing it.

If a player commits a foul and the opponent sees it they simply call the foul but if a shooter commits a foul and the opponent doesn't see it, who's going to know?
If the shooter says nothing, then no penalty. And what would be the motivation for something that has no penalty.

Making it a rule that you have to call a foul on yourself is unenforceable.

Since the shooter holds the high ground on disputed shots, even if someone else claims it was a foul, the opponent never saw it so the shooter can simply claim it wasn't a foul. " He said , she said" isn't grounds to enforce the foul.

All in all, this puts us right back where we are now with the rules omitting the language that requires a player to call a foul on themselves.

Personally, I think the specific language requiring a player to call a foul on themselves was omitted because of the reasons cited above.

To put it in the rules would open up a can of worms requiring much more clarity than could ever be managed.
If the fouling party denies it was a foul, would we require two outside observers to see the foul to enforce it?
Would they have to be people who were not associates of the player to avoid a conflict of interest? It just gets too convoluted to make it a viable rule.

I wonder how this would work if we required all sports to implement a rule that held competitors to inform their opponent they did something contrary to the rules?

As the rules stand right now, he who is not shooting is accountable to catch all fouls and I think, in this area, the rules are best served as they are.
 
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BRussell said:
Wow, I'm pretty sure where I play no one would get banished for failing to call a foul on themselves, because it's considered within the rules.
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Usually guys that will not call a foul on themselves have other character flaws that become evident over time and players will complain. I'm sure you have guys that are whiners and everyone knows it and you have guys that won't play unless they have a lock game and everyone knows it. It seems that pool is actually a small community and everyone pretty much knows everyone else over time. I know who the scumbags, druggies and such are and I also know who the guys are that are gentlemen. I know who I enjoy playing with and who I don't enjoy playing with. Word gets around and these habitual cheaters are eventually uninvited.
 
BRussell said:
Here's a scenario: There was a close hit and you get up, your opponent just sits down. So you ask "was that a foul?" and they say yes. You say "this tournament uses a call your own fouls rule." Then it's over. If it keeps happening, maybe you go to the tournament director or league team captain or league manager, just like you might if someone was marking the table with their chalk and refused to stop, or sharking or delaying.
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Well that's easy to get around. The shooter could claim the opponent didn't give them enough time to call the foul on themselves before he asked if it was a foul. The shooter could also say they didn't realize it was a foul until their opponent said something.

Even worse, some people might be more inclined to lie when asked if they fouled, because they know it could lead to them being called out for not calling it on themselves in the first place.
 
philly said:
I see where you are coming from Skippy, but a match that I am not involved in is none of my business. That is also a form of sportsmanship.
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I would strongly disagree with this.

Allowing one player to cheat another is everyone's business and we should all hold each other accountable for our actions.
 
Skippy27 said:
I would strongly disagree with this.

Allowing one player to cheat another is everyone's business and we should all hold each other accountable for our actions.
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I'm not a cop and they are big boys. It's not like coming to someones rescue who is getting badly beaten up. If I chimed in to another's match I would fully expect one of them to tell me to mind my own business and they would be right. It's their match not mine. I am just a spectator.
 
philly said:
I'm not a cop and they are big boys. It's not like coming to someones rescue who is getting badly beaten up. If I chimed in to another's match I would fully expect one of them to tell me to mind my own business and they would be right. It's their match not mine. I am just a spectator.
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It is the "not my business" attitudes like that which are a vast majority of the problems in our society today. Problem starts with kids and goes all the way to elected officials.
 
Skippy27 said:
It is the "not my business" attitudes like that which are a vast majority of the problems in our society today. Problem starts with kids and goes all the way to elected officials.
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Hey Skip, keep sticking your nose in other peoples business in a poolroom and telling them what or what not to do and your nose won't stay straight long.
You seem young enough to feel you can change the world. Good for you. You should feel that way at your age. I think you should run for office and change things.
 
railbird99 said:
Well that's easy to get around. The shooter could claim the opponent didn't give them enough time to call the foul on themselves before he asked if it was a foul. The shooter could also say they didn't realize it was a foul until their opponent said something.

Even worse, some people might be more inclined to lie when asked if they fouled, because they know it could lead to them being called out for not calling it on themselves in the first place.
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lol yes you could get around the rules, just like right now you could simply deny that an obvious foul has occurred and force the decision to the shooter. I think you overestimate how enforceable any pool rules are currently. There are no pool police or pool juries or pool prisons, but making a rule change like this could change otherwise honest people's attitudes about this situation, which I believe would improve sportsmanship.

I'm not under the impression that rules make cheaters go away, in the same way that laws don't make criminals go away. They're just a way for a group to explicitly declare how people are supposed to act.
 
I think the rules have developed to the point that they're at because most people want to be honest and they will play that way. Without a ref watching every shot, there's nothing but honesty and honor keeping people from cheating. Fortunately, the number of people willing to be deceptive is small and their reputation will follow them - even if it wins them a match today, they're not going to find much action tomorrow.
 
bobprobst said:
I think the rules have developed to the point that they're at because most people want to be honest and they will play that way. Without a ref watching every shot, there's nothing but honesty and honor keeping people from cheating. Fortunately, the number of people willing to be deceptive is small and their reputation will follow them - even if it wins them a match today, they're not going to find much action tomorrow.
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Yes. Exactly what I said before. In the pool community everyone gets to know each other sooner or later.
 
Skippy27 said:
I would strongly disagree with this.

Allowing one player to cheat another is everyone's business and we should all hold each other accountable for our actions.
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I agree.

Besides, i consider most of the people that play around me to be my friends. I wouldn't allow them to be cheated because some twit was fast enough to pull one over on them.

I would also tell people if a restaurant's food sucked or if a car was a lemon. Guess im just a knocker that way.

If you're more likely to get in a fight because you point out cheating than you are for cheating someone, it's a bad place and not worth my time or money.
 
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