Push option after Foul?

[Tom In Cincy]

Playing 9 Ball;

You mis-cue and catch the cue ball before it hits the rack. This is a foul and you give up the table and your opponent has ball in hand behind the head string and makes a legal break, but doesn't make a ball and leaves you Hooked behind a ball where you can't kick or jump to hit the one ball.

You are on a foul:
1. Can you call a 'push'?
2. If so, does that take you off the first foul?

You make the call

 

[mjantti]

Playing 9 Ball;

You mis-cue and catch the cue ball before it hits the rack. This is a foul and you give up the table and your opponent has ball in hand behind the head string and makes a legal break, but doesn't make a ball and leaves you Hooked behind a ball where you can't kick or jump to hit the one ball.

You are on a foul:
1. Can you call a 'push'?
2. If so, does that take you off the first foul?

You make the call

Umm, if you screw up the break and make a foul, I think your opponent has a ball in hand anywhere on the table. He might just thin the one-ball and leave you behind the rack for second and perhaps even three fouls in a row. If he chooses to smash the rack open instead, there is no push-out available, not for you if he comes up dry on the break and nor for him if he makes a ball and gets hooked. Technically the opening shot was the foul shot in the first place, not the second shot after that.

 

[poolboy17]

Umm, if you screw up the break and make a foul, I think your opponent has a ball in hand anywhere on the table. He might just thin the one-ball and leave you behind the rack for second and perhaps even three fouls in a row. If he chooses to smash the rack open instead, there is no push-out available, not for you if he comes up dry on the break and nor for him if he makes a ball and gets hooked. Technically the opening shot was the foul shot in the first place, not the second shot after that.

Correct. You may push out only after the initial break. The break is considered to have begun when the cue makes contact with the cueball.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The complete rule is you only have the option to push on the shot immediately proceeding a legal break. In this case, the moment breaker fouled, pushing was no longer was an option for either player.

Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[Tom In Cincy]

So, the answer is NO. There isn't a 'push-out' available if the original breaker fouled on the break. Incoming player has ball in hand and does not have the push-out option.

There are many players and tournament directors that contend that the game of 9 ball does not start until the cue ball hits the one ball. Why can't we all play by the same rules?

5.6 PUSH OUT
The player who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to con-tact any object ball nor any rail, but all other foul rules still apply. The player must announce the intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except the 9-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming player is permitted to shoot from that position or to pass the shot back to the player who pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no rule (except rules 5.8 and 5.9) is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a player scratches on the break shot, the incoming player cannot play a push out .

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

So, the answer is NO. There isn't a 'push-out' available if the original breaker fouled on the break. Incoming player has ball in hand and does not have the push-out option.

There are many players and tournament directors that contend that the game of 9 ball does not start until the cue ball hits the one ball. Why can't we all play by the same rules?

5.6 PUSH OUT
The player who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to con-tact any object ball nor any rail, but all other foul rules still apply. The player must announce the intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except the 9-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming player is permitted to shoot from that position or to pass the shot back to the player who pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no rule (except rules 5.8 and 5.9) is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a player scratches on the break shot, the incoming player cannot play a push out .

Regarding your question, that is often times the case in friendly/amateur play however, the BCA rules are the professional standard. There are some players that even find the cue-ball fouls only rule to be too relaxed. The underlying problem with allowing "re-break" to occur is that you open pandora's box in terms of problems as you illustrated in your original post. What happens to push-outs? Is the offender on 1 foul? As it stands, the rule simplifies all of this by saying the rack is to be played as though a foul occurred, nothing more.

In the end, it's all about keeping good habits. Not fulfilling the requirements of the break is a foul and there is a penalty for that foul that you simply can't side-step.


This all reminds me of a Joss event I entered a few weeks ago. In a match I was watching, a player moved a ball while pocketing another. There was a discussion as to whether it was a foul and it was decided that the opponent had the right to put the ball back where he thought it was. His opponent then proceeded to put the moved object ball right infront of the cue-ball, safing the offender. It was originally in that neighborhood but not quite where he "restored" position. Anyway, after the match, the guy was airing his grievances to me and I said, "You leave yourself open to stuff like that when you move balls."


The lesson to be learned here is don't ever assume a mulligan is in order and sloppy play will ALWAYS cost you. Keep your house in order and you have nothing to worry about.



Jude M. Rosenstock