Question About Pros

[Zphix]

Playing pool professionally is not my main goal; life coaching is but, I still love pool and want to play every minute of every day. I'm more passionate about this game than many many players (even those who are currently better than me) and I think this passion is responsible for my quick growth in playing. I'm around a lot of players who play to a high standard and still, I think about this game differently than them - from the pro interviews I've been watching these past few days I'm more inclined to say my views/opinions/love is closer to theirs.

This got me thinking, pros obviously did not always play pro speed since they picked up a cue. Sky started at 10 and won his first big tourney at 16 (6 years later), and from what I've seen many players started to play at this speed at around the 6 year mark. Which is where my question comes in; for those who know pro players, how did their speeds change across those 6 years?

At 1 year were they B players? A players? AAs in 3 years? What is the average skill-level progression for pro players?

Again, my goal isn't to be a pro player but I would like to play open tournaments at pro speed. That is my goal, and I'm 2 years into this game and am currently around A speed, and above A speed when I'm calm and collected.

-Richard

 

[Cameron Smith]

I don't know the exact answer, however you have to keep in mind most pros learn as kids or early teens. Kids learn at a much different rate than adults, and they pick up skills far easier than adults do. The key development years for a kid trying to develop into a professional sportsman is roughly 11-16 for boys and 10-15 for girls.

The ages and ranges may be a little off but you get the idea. But this explains why someone like Wu could start at 10 and win the world championships at 16. Adults need a bit more time to develop their skills and I think probably practice more deliberately since they they aren't building motor memory as quickly.

For more info, check this out. It's not about pool but about talent identification in general for developing kids into professional sportsman. He also debunks the 10,000 hour 'rule'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZBBXddQxI

 

[Zphix]

I don't know the exact answer, however you have to keep in mind most pros learn as kids or early teens. Kids learn at a much different rate than adults, and they pick up skills far easier than adults do. The key development years for a kid trying to develop into a professional sportsman is roughly 11-16 for boys and 10-15 for girls.

The ages and ranges may be a little off but you get the idea. But this explains why someone like Wu could start at 10 and win the world championships at 16. Adults need a bit more time to develop their skills and I think probably practice more deliberately since they they aren't building motor memory as quickly.

For more info, check this out. It's not about pool but about talent identification in general for developing kids into professional sportsman. He also debunks the 10,000 hour 'rule'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZBBXddQxI

I think I'm going to re-connect with some of my psych teachers to find more information on this but I have a thought. Synaptic pruning is where the "use it or lose it" principal comes from and if you're exposed to something early on in your life then you will retain the ability. If you're exposed to pool then you will retain an ability to pick the game up.

I was exposed to the game early on but not for a long period of time so I'm wondering if I retained a natural ability for it because ever since I started to focus on it at late 18 I've been a "natural" of sorts and I'm wondering if it's because I had early exposure.

Will really have to look into this topic heavily.

 

[ceebee]

The world has Pro Players that came from different ages, backgrounds countries & whatever.

Playing at a high level is a goal that we would all like to reach. Some of us do, some of us don't, but we all strive for that end.

Even the ones that don't have high aspirations, still have fun. They buy they're Pool Cues, Cases & paraphernalia to show their passion for the game. More power to all who play Pool.

In general... LIFE is what you put into it, but that being said, we all know there are no guarantees.

Good Luck to you... let us know how well you do.

 

[Zphix]

The world has Pro Players that came from different ages, backgrounds countries & whatever.

Playing at a high level is a goal that we would all like to reach. Some of us do, some of us don't, but we all strive for that end.

Even the ones that don't have high aspirations, still have fun. They buy they're Pool Cues, Cases & paraphernalia to show their passion for the game. More power to all who play Pool.

In general... LIFE is what you put into it, but that being said, we all know there are no guarantees.

Good Luck to you... let us know how well you do.

Thank you for the kind words. I was told about a year ago in Wisconsin (and have been told many times) that if I keep going the way I'm going I'll be master-level/top amateur level within 4-5 years. I know I can play pro-speed well within that time as well and I will for sure.

What I mean to say is that I love pool and have incredible passion. I want to play all the time, every minute of every day no matter what else I'm doing. I don't know many people who have that kind of love for this game.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I think I'm going to re-connect with some of my psych teachers to find more information on this but I have a thought. Synaptic pruning is where the "use it or lose it" principal comes from and if you're exposed to something early on in your life then you will retain the ability. If you're exposed to pool then you will retain an ability to pick the game up.

I was exposed to the game early on but not for a long period of time so I'm wondering if I retained a natural ability for it because ever since I started to focus on it at late 18 I've been a "natural" of sorts and I'm wondering if it's because I had early exposure.

Will really have to look into this topic heavily.

It's possible, I taught guitar for years and the younger lads are the ones that pick it up a lot quicker and without as much instruction, so long as they are self motivated.

Another heavy advantage for kids is they feel the sky is the limit. . I find that kids tend not to be bogged down with the negativity of adulthood. A 10 year old may look at Eddie Van Halen and see that level of ability as a realistic goal, where as a beginner adult often seems to just be aiming to be competent. I don't have research to support this, it's just what I've observed over the years as both a teacher and a learner.

The synaptic pruning thing makes sense, I started playing guitar as a teen and I can go months without playing and still be able to pick it up without much difficulty. Feels like there is glue between my fingers though.

 

[Zphix]

It's possible, I taught guitar for years and the younger lads are the ones that pick it up a lot quicker and without as much instruction, so long as they are self motivated.

Another heavy advantage for kids is they feel the sky is the limit. . I find that kids tend not to be bogged down with the negativity of adulthood. A 10 year old may look at Eddie Van Halen and see that level of ability as a realistic goal, where as a beginner adult often seems to just be aiming to be competent. I don't have research to support this, it's just what I've observed over the years as both a teacher and a learner.

The synaptic pruning thing makes sense, I started playing guitar as a teen and I can go months without playing and still be able to pick it up without much difficulty. Feels like there is glue between my fingers though.

You bring up another good point. I'm also involved in life coaching and have done a lot of reading and talking with wonderful mentors who inspired me to not be bogged down by negativity.

No matter how old you are I believe that whatever dreams/aspirations you have are possible and my goal above pro-speed pool is coaching others to find that path and create a lifestyle around it. So, even as an adult negativity doesn't get to me at all.

The more I think about it the more I feel like I have the ingredients to make this possible. You're sparking a lot of good stuff Cameron!

 

[Cameron Smith]

You bring up another good point. I'm also involved in life coaching and have done a lot of reading and talking with wonderful mentors who inspired me to not be bogged down by negativity.

No matter how old you are I believe that whatever dreams/aspirations you have are possible and my goal above pro-speed pool is coaching others to find that path and create a lifestyle around it. So, even as an adult negativity doesn't get to me at all.

The more I think about it the more I feel like I have the ingredients to make this possible. You're sparking a lot of good stuff Cameron!

Thank you

 

[NYC cue dude]

As an aside, what level you're at is relative to your geographical location. An A player in Idaho is a c player in NYC. If everyone around you is above average, and you can tread water with them, but get devoured by the B players in another area, just because you're the best in your area doesn't make you an A player.

How well do you play the 9 ball ghost. Or, what is your straight pool high run?

 

[NitPicker]

It's not just negativity, it's being bogged down with what life has put upon you. Kids have minimal responsibilities, accountability and frame of reference. At a young age, this gives you a lot more room in the brain for passions, aspirations and creativity without the bias of experience. Kids haven't had much chance to experience reactions from actions. It's why you feel invincible when you're young. You don't know what you don't know.

With knowledge one can become smart, but becoming wise requires experience. The 10K hour rule is a bit arbitrary (although there have been years of studies), but the point is it's the greater experience that usually gives advantage, although there can always be an exception. That's why it's a "rule of thumb", not a law of physics or nature.

Why is Shane Van Boening so successful with his break shot? Does he have some natural gift for it? Not likely. More likely it's the hours upon hours he's spent practicing and perfecting it. Ko Pin Yi can make great jump shots. Is it his positive attitude? Probably not, but rather the long hours he's spent shooting nothing but jump shots.

We all need to invest the time. Some of us may need 10 thousand hours, some of us may need over 20 thousand. There may be some that only need 5-7 thousand. But for everyone that "got there", they had to put in the time.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Question about Pros

The physical part of the game (hand eye coordination) can be learned fairly quick if you put the time in (2 - 3 years for example). You can also gain the knowledge of the game(s) within this time frame also. Its the mental side of the game that can take a very long time to master (if ever) which separates the pros from the rest of the field. You have to learn to deal with self inflicted pressure and get out every time when you are suppose to which is extremely difficult to learn. The only way to learn this is to practice a lot to gain confidence and play against very good players all the time to gain mental toughness.

A ton of players can run racks practicing but when they are playing against world class players its much harder to do. How many players are the best in their area but can't compete at a world class level simply because they can't play the best players all the time? Simply put you need to play against pros to learn to become a pro or as many pros say: Pay your Dues.

 

[Zphix]

For reference I play in Chicago which has a fairly average or slightly above average rating level compared to true Bs and As, etc. Basically, a AA in Chicago is more inclined to be a real AA.

Also, I was in Wisconsin playing for a year and their Fargo system is nearly identical to the now established World Fargo system except, the Wisconsin ratings are approximately 20 points higher than the World Fargo ratings. So, a 750 in Wisconsin is a 730 on the World Fargo rating.

Now, with that in mind. I left Wisconsin as a mid-level B and haven't been rated since. But, I'm playing in accord with what I remember many many A level players playing at. When I'm calm and collected I play above that level.

 

[Cameron Smith]

It's not just negativity, it's being bogged down with what life has put upon you. Kids have minimal responsibilities, accountability and frame of reference. At a young age, this gives you a lot more room in the brain for passions, aspirations and creativity without the bias of experience. Kids haven't had much chance to experience reactions from actions. It's why you feel invincible when you're young. You don't know what you don't know.

With knowledge one can become smart, but becoming wise requires experience. The 10K hour rule is a bit arbitrary (although there have been years of studies), but the point is it's the greater experience that usually gives advantage, although there can always be an exception. That's why it's a "rule of thumb", not a law of physics or nature.

Why is Shane Van Boening so successful with his break shot? Does he have some natural gift for it? Not likely. More likely it's the hours upon hours he's spent practicing and perfecting it. Ko Pin Yi can make great jump shots. Is it his positive attitude? Probably not, but rather the long hours he's spent shooting nothing but jump shots.

We all need to invest the time. Some of us may need 10 thousand hours, some of us may need over 20 thousand. There may be some that only need 5-7 thousand. But for everyone that "got there", they had to put in the time.

Nobody disputes that you need to put a lot of work into achieving high levels, at least not in the academic world. Just that the 10,000 hour rule doesn't really work as anything other than a way to illustrate the point that you have to work at it for a long time, which every coach, teacher or academic already understands.

In the video, the professor states that some grandmaster chess players got there with 4,000 hours and another got there at 11,000 hours and another player never got there at all with 25,000 hours. And once you have to start adding all sorts of caveats (ie. well he didn't practice right or deliberately enough) the rule falls apart. Also many professional hockey players have reached a pro level at 4,000 hours.

The point is simply that there is no rule because each person develops in their own way and at their own rate. In fact the presenter believes that aiming for that 10,000 hours risks over training and increasing the potential for injury. That's not really a concern for pool players, but I've never believed that 8-10 hours a day of practice is the best approach. There is likely a point of diminishing returns with regards to the amount of hours for daily practice and just because a lot of pros did put in that many hours a day, doesn't mean it was any more beneficial than 3-5 hours a day.

If I had to put together a practice session, it would probably be 2-3 hours in the morning, 2-3 hours in the evening with a 5 minute break every hour. Pick a number of drills or routines to work on and focus on each one for no more than 20 minutes before moving to the next. You can repeat the routines, just need to rotate them to maintain a high level of concentration.

 

[SamLambert]

Sylvain Grenier, the pro who owns the pool hall where I practice, took a little under 5 years to get to pro speed. He started playing at either 14 years old or 16 years old, I don't remember precisely.

 

[NitPicker]

Nobody disputes that you need to put a lot of work into achieving high levels, at least not in the academic world. Just that the 10,000 hour rule doesn't really work as anything other than a way to illustrate the point that you have to work at it for a long time, which every coach, teacher or academic already understands.

In the video, the professor states that some grandmaster chess players got there with 4,000 hours and another got there at 11,000 hours and another player never got there at all with 25,000 hours. And once you have to start adding all sorts of caveats (ie. well he didn't practice right or deliberately enough) the rule falls apart. Also many professional hockey players have reached a pro level at 4,000 hours.

The point is simply that there is no rule because each person develops in their own way and at their own rate. In fact the presenter believes that aiming for that 10,000 hours risks over training and increasing the potential for injury. That's not really a concern for pool players, but I've never believed that 8-10 hours a day of practice is the best approach. There is likely a point of diminishing returns with regards to the amount of hours for daily practice and just because a lot of pros did put in that many hours a day, doesn't mean it was any more beneficial than 3-5 hours a day.

If I had to put together a practice session, it would probably be 2-3 hours in the morning, 2-3 hours in the evening with a 5 minute break every hour. Pick a number of drills or routines to work on and focus on each one for no more than 20 minutes before moving to the next. You can repeat the routines, just need to rotate them to maintain a high level of concentration.

Your reply basically repeated my comment in your own words. So I think we're on the same page about the 10K thing. Regarding your comments about how to practice or train, the ups and downs of overtraining, etc., I would recommend a book I read not too long ago called "Consistent Winning" by Ronald D Sandler, D.P.M, and Dennis D. Lobstein, Ph.D. It was written more from the perspective of triathletes, etc. but the main theme has to do with cycles in sports performance, timing your training for peak performance with natural patterns such as Fibonacci numbers, the Golden Mean, Golden Ratio, etc. Based on your comments, I think you'll find the book interesting, if not insightful. It's a quick and easy read.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Your reply basically repeated my comment in your own words. So I think we're on the same page about the 10K thing. Regarding your comments about how to practice or train, the ups and downs of overtraining, etc., I would recommend a book I read not too long ago called "Consistent Winning" by Ronald D Sandler, D.P.M, and Dennis D. Lobstein, Ph.D. It was written more from the perspective of triathletes, etc. but the main theme has to do with cycles in sports performance, timing your training for peak performance with natural patterns such as Fibonacci numbers, the Golden Mean, Golden Ratio, etc. Based on your comments, I think you'll find the book interesting, if not insightful. It's a quick and easy read.

It seems so yes, I was just clarifying that I don't believe in the idea that top performers don't have to work at it and I got off on a tangent lol. Whenever I've mentioned my concerns with the 10,000 hour rule, it can be misconstrued.

Thank you for the suggestion, I will most certainly check it out.

 

[Ranmar]

It's nice to read a post on this site like yours once while. I don't feel covered in mud and ashamed of myself... Thanks man.

Glad to have you in Chicago. Hope to run into you.

 

[Zphix]

It's nice to read a post on this site like yours once while. I don't feel covered in mud and ashamed of myself... Thanks man.

Glad to have you in Chicago. Hope to run into you.

South Chicago to be exact.

Where do you shoot out of?

Send me a PM :thumbup2:

 

[Zphix]

I was at the table today for 6 hours and I played the 9-ball ghost straight away. I actually ran my first 3-pack (on a 9 ft. Gold Crown btw, not a barbox) and beat the ghost 10-6. Ordinarily I'm pretty hard on myself when I miss shots, or play bad and end up playing worse but today my goal was to remain calm and collected and I was playing fantastic.

I also played some straight pool for an hour and a half and ran 53 before I miscued. Again, my goal was to stay calm and collected.

It is unbelievable how much of a difference I see when I remain calm and collected vs. being hard on myself.

Also, I recorded a few games against the ghost on my phone but it turned out really bad so I'll have to find another way to record myself in the future.

 

[Neil]

I was at the table today for 6 hours and I played the 9-ball ghost straight away. I actually ran my first 3-pack (on a 9 ft. Gold Crown btw, not a barbox) and beat the ghost 10-6. Ordinarily I'm pretty hard on myself when I miss shots, or play bad and end up playing worse but today my goal was to remain calm and collected and I was playing fantastic.

I also played some straight pool for an hour and a half and ran 53 before I miscued. Again, my goal was to stay calm and collected.

It is unbelievable how much of a difference I see when I remain calm and collected vs. being hard on myself.

Also, I recorded a few games against the ghost on my phone but it turned out really bad so I'll have to find another way to record myself in the future.

If you can do that, you have most of the physical skills down pretty well. What separates the pros from the almost pros is consistency. That one miss or miscue that you made ended your run. A pro won't make that mistake. They inherently pay attention to detail on every shot. That has to be ingrained into your subconscious to where it becomes automatic.

They also have superb cb control. How is yours? CB control can never be underestimated. It's the difference between an easy run or a hard run. A poor safe to a good safe to a lock up safe.

You also have to learn to control pressure situations. How best for YOUR mind to deal with them to where they don't adversely affect your game, but enhance your game.

Along with consistency is proper fundamentals. Guess what pros usually work on when they take lessons- that's right, fundamentals. Right back to the same thing the beginners work on.