question about strokes

Jimbojim

Jimbojim

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A little questions for the teachers around here.

When I watchpool matches, I notice differences in the players's stroke. While I know everybody has their own style, the goal is the same : Accelerate through the cue ball in a straight line and follow through. But let's take 2 different players: Efren Reyes and Alex Pagulayan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgQW86i26W0

Efren Reyes has a really loose stroke and a long back stroke. I always felt that with this stroke, its easier to put 'action' on the cueball with less power since the backstroke goes so deep back, it doesn't require much top speed to have a good acceleration through the cueball.

Alex Pagulayan has a much shorter stroke than his filipino counterparts. His back stroke is almost non existant (figure of speech) and still gets the job done. I always felt that with that stroke, someone can be more precise but would need more power to produce the same 'magic' on the cue ball and thus playing much harder than pocket speed. Acceleration has to befaster because the distance to travel from the backstroke to the cue ball is so limited that there is no choice but to go faster to attain the action.

So my question is this for you instructors. What type of stroke between those 2 do you try to implement on new players or players trying to improve their game? and why?

Sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly, after all english is my second language :)
 
It's a trade off between accuracy and power. Shorter bridges make it easier to be accurate. Longer bridges make it easier it is to deliver more power.

There isn't a one size fits all bridge length. What is the best for the player depends on the player and how smooth and accurate their stroke is, and what they feel comfortable with.

When I work with a student that has issues with their stroke, I suggest a 6 - 8 inch bridge length as a good starting position as they develop a smooth stroke. I explain the trade off and suggest that as their stroke improves, to find a length that works well for them and use that distance when there is no reason to adjust it.
 
What stroke do you use Mark?

I'm just trying to see which stroke is the most popular among instructors and which one they feel a player should develop.
 
I haven't met Mark, so I can't speak for him, but most instructors that I have met and worked with use a pendilum type stroke, with standard bridge length somewhere around 6 to 9 inches.

One thing I would differ with Mark's reply is the use of the word "power". Power gives an impression of putting more muscle into the stroke. Actually, it is the speed of the cue when it makes contact with the cue ball, that determines how much energy gets transferred to the cue ball. Increasing speed does not require more power, just a quicker rate of accelleration.

Personally, my SOP shooting template is an 8 inch bridge length with a 4.5 inch follow through.

Steve
 
Mine is 8.2 inches and 4 :-)

And using Pendulum Stroke-- easiest to learn and teach-
Easier to keep it simple.

lg
Ingo
 
How fast/slow is your backstroke compared to the speed of your 'frontstroke' according the shot X at hand? Like for example CB and OB are 2 diamonds apart and straight in and you need to draw back 2 more diamonds past where you initially shot the shot. Fast backstroke or slower kinda like golfers?

Thanks for your input guys, I'm also curious what Randyg and Scott have to say about this.
 
The backstroke is a completely separate function from the forward stroke. Opposite direction, different muscles involved. The only purpose of the backstroke is to position your grip hand to begin the forward stroke. The speed of the two are completely unrelated.

Your backstroke should be smooth, and with a consistent speed.

Steve
 
Another way to say what Steve said, is that the only reason for having any distance between your bridge hand, and the CB, is to allow the weight of the cue, and timing, to create the speed of the stroke. The stroke is all about speed, and has nothing to do with "power" (which for most people would mean grabbing the cue tightly, and 'driving' it through the CB). Loose grip, quick muscle twitch fibers, and great timing, and a cue that weighs about 3x as much as the CB, are all that is needed to create any speed stroke...even the break.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

pooltchr said:
The backstroke is a completely separate function from the forward stroke. Opposite direction, different muscles involved. The only purpose of the backstroke is to position your grip hand to begin the forward stroke. The speed of the two are completely unrelated.

Your backstroke should be smooth, and with a consistent speed.

Steve
Click to expand...
 
My bad, I misused the word 'power' when I wanted to say faster. Although, it is a natural habit to grip the cue tighter though.

So you guys are saying that you use the same 8" backstroke and 4" follow through on every shot even if its a small delicate shot but with much slower acceleration? Isn't shooting like Alex the best way for short delicate shots?

Just trying to see your point of view.

Thing is that I have been playing pool for about 5 years and while I am progressing at a good rate, I'm trying to get rid of every flaws that I might have so when the big pressure shots come in play, I'll be able to rely on my stroke. I was just trying to get comparaisons for the different types of stroke.
 
Not trying to hijack (sorry) but this is related to something my friend was speaking with me about this weekend. His contention is that I need to work on my stroke, to be more consistent, in order to progress. We are all agreed on this. :p

He mentions that I seem to be "poking", not following through well enough. Again, very likely to be correct, no argument here. As I'm trying to work on this and correct it, what would the distance be to be considered a "follow-through"? I realize there is no one-size-fits-all answer, just looking for general parameters.

I'm also wondering if bridge distance is directly related, meaning if I make my bridge distance a bit longer, will that make it more natural to follow through?

Again, so for the hijack, but my questions seemed related to the topic at hand.

(Insert the usual disclaimer of the fact that I realize personal instruction would greatly speed the learning process. I understand that, and when it becomes feasible I will most certainly seek out an instructor.)
 
Jimbo, for most shots, I use my standard bridge distance. However, on extremely soft shots, shortening the bridge distance and choking up on the cue does give you better control for those really slow speeds.

Justa...lengthening your bridge distance will have no impact at all on your follow through distance if you are using a pendilum stroke. The distance your hand has to travel from contact to finish will be the same. If the distance your grip hand travels after contact is the same, then the distance your tip will travel after contact will also be the same.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Jimbo, for most shots, I use my standard bridge distance. However, on extremely soft shots, shortening the bridge distance and choking up on the cue does give you better control for those really slow speeds.

Justa...lengthening your bridge distance will have no impact at all on your follow through distance if you are using a pendilum stroke. The distance your hand has to travel from contact to finish will be the same. If the distance your grip hand travels after contact is the same, then the distance your tip will travel after contact will also be the same.

Steve
Click to expand...


Thanks for your input.
 
pooltchr said:
If the distance your grip hand travels after contact is the same, then the distance your tip will travel after contact will also be the same.

Steve
Click to expand...

{scratching head}

Thanks, Steve. I get that.

I was wondering what I might change that would induce more follow-through. Meaning that would I be more likely to move the cue further through my bridge hand, if the bridge were further back, or closer to the point of contact. If either style applies.

Or to use your verbiage, what might make it more natural to move the tip further after contact...

Sorry to be so dense. And as always, I appreciate the help.
 
Why would you want to move the cue farther? Once you have made contact with the cue ball, it separates from the tip and is gone. At that point, more follow through will have absolutely nothing to do with the shot.
If you have natural follow through distance, you have all you need.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Why would you want to move the cue farther? Once you have made contact with the cue ball, it separates from the tip and is gone. At that point, more follow through will have absolutely nothing to do with the shot.
If you have natural follow through distance, you have all you need.

Steve
Click to expand...

Ahh, the trouble with trying to express this stuff via the typed word...

What I'm trying to say is that my friend believes that I'm not following through enough, or properly. And that is hindering me developing my "stroke".

(No, he isn't a formal instructor, but he is a very experienced player. I actually believe he would make a fine instructor, if he chose to do so.)

I'm only asking about methods that might help make me follow through more than I am currently, versus the "poking" that I am apparently doing. I was asking if extending or shortening the bridge length might help make it more natural to follow through, more than I am doing currently. If that is totally unrelated, so be it.

Is that clearer? Or am I even further off for trying to describe it? :p

I appreciate the help and the patience.
 
Forget about follow through distance for a minute. When you get in the set position, your tip is close to the cue ball, and your grip hand is under your elbow. Now, when you finish your final stroke, your grip hand should go all the way to it's natural finish position. For most players, that is somewhere in the ribs or side of the chest, depending on your individual body size and shape. Let your arm swing forward until it hits that point and stops. If you are doing that, you will have a good smooth stroke, and your follow through will be fine. Punching the ball is usually observed when you try to stop your stroke before you get to your natural finish position.

Next time you are at the table, just get into that Set position, and then see where your grip hand ends up when you swing your forearm forward until it stops. Do this without moving your elbow, and you will find your natural finish position. Then when you are shooting, just think about bringing your grip hand to that same point on your chest. You will have all the follow through you need.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Forget about follow through distance for a minute. When you get in the set position, your tip is close to the cue ball, and your grip hand is under your elbow. Now, when you finish your final stroke, your grip hand should go all the way to it's natural finish position. For most players, that is somewhere in the ribs or side of the chest, depending on your individual body size and shape. Let your arm swing forward until it hits that point and stops. If you are doing that, you will have a good smooth stroke, and your follow through will be fine. Punching the ball is usually observed when you try to stop your stroke before you get to your natural finish position.

Next time you are at the table, just get into that Set position, and then see where your grip hand ends up when you swing your forearm forward until it stops. Do this without moving your elbow, and you will find your natural finish position. Then when you are shooting, just think about bringing your grip hand to that same point on your chest. You will have all the follow through you need.

Steve
Click to expand...

Thanks.

/end hijack

:p
 
pooltchr said:
I haven't met Mark, so I can't speak for him, but most instructors that I have met and worked with use a pendilum type stroke, with standard bridge length somewhere around 6 to 9 inches.
Click to expand...

I do teach the pendulum stroke. It's simple, reliable, and easy to master.

pooltchr said:
One thing I would differ with Mark's reply is the use of the word "power". Power gives an impression of putting more muscle into the stroke. Actually, it is the speed of the cue when it makes contact with the cue ball, that determines how much energy gets transferred to the cue ball.
Click to expand...

I would agree that energy is a better choice of words than power, and it's not about brute force.

pooltchr said:
Increasing speed does not require more power, just a quicker rate of accelleration.
Click to expand...

Or a longer period of acceleration, which is what the bridge length affects.
 
There are no hard and fast rules. Bridge length must be long enough to allow for the necessary cue acceleration, but not so long that it negatively affects accuracy. Somewhere around 7 to 10 inches is probably going to be most effective for most shots. On extremely soft shots, you may find a shorter bridge length works a little better. And sometimes, the location of other balls on the table will dictate how long your bridge distance must be. I can't have an 8 inch bridge is there is another ball 9 inches behind the cue ball.
My SOP length is about 8 inches. YMMV.

Steve
 
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