Question on Warpage

R

Rackin_Zack

Suffering from OCBD
Silver Member
I recently had a couple of shafts move on me, one not too bad and one bad enough I had to get it replaced. This got me to thinking so I thought I'd ask the great cue makers who post on the board here. What is your policy on cue warpage? Do you have a different policy for shafts versus butts? How often does one of your shafts and/or butts warp? If you do have a policy where you replace/repair warped shafts/butts, what degree of warpage do you view as acceptable?

I know that most cue makers do everything they can to make good wood selections, season the wood properly and take time between cuts to avoid warpage, but I would imagine it still happens to event he best cue makers. I would like to thank any carmakers who are gracious enough to post their thoughts on this subject.
 
I warranty the butt to the original owner. Providing it was taken care of, Shafts I would have to judge on an individual bases, Some people just don't understand the characteristics of wood, other say that their careless not abusive (Ping, think there's a difference) For the most part I haven't had a lot of trouble but the most important part is to stay open minded, one on one.
 
Michael Webb said:
I warranty the butt to the original owner. Providing it was taken care of, Shafts I would have to judge on an individual bases, Some people just don't understand the characteristics of wood, other say that their careless not abusive (Ping, think there's a difference) For the most part I haven't had a lot of trouble but the most important part is to stay open minded, one on one.
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Thanks for answering Mike! I thought I'd get a few more responses though. I didn't post this to imply that cuemakers should cover warpage or not I just thought it would be interesting to get a cuemakers take on it and how they personally handle it when it happens. Thanks again for the reply.
 
Lou has a good point. In the blue book of cues 2nd edition you will find most cuemakers state they do not warranty warpage or abuse. I am in that same camp. I turn my shafts slower than most cuemakers do as to avoid warpage, but once it is out of my hands I have no idea what has happened to it. People who bend their shafts on draw and break shots are guaranteed to have warped shafts even if they don't leave it in their car and such.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
cueman said:
Lou has a good point. In the blue book of cues 2nd edition you will find most cuemakers state they do not warranty warpage or abuse. I am in that same camp. I turn my shafts slower than most cuemakers do as to avoid warpage, but once it is out of my hands I have no idea what has happened to it. People who bend their shafts on draw and break shots are guaranteed to have warped shafts even if they don't leave it in their car and such.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
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Very well said Chris... it's good that the cuebuying public know that custom cuemakers do their very best to produce a shaft that will play right and stay straight the longest possible time if not forever, and care and research along with certain procedures are taken to insure this.
 
cueman said:
Lou has a good point. In the blue book of cues 2nd edition you will find most cuemakers state they do not warranty warpage or abuse. I am in that same camp. I turn my shafts slower than most cuemakers do as to avoid warpage, but once it is out of my hands I have no idea what has happened to it. People who bend their shafts on draw and break shots are guaranteed to have warped shafts even if they don't leave it in their car and such.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
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Chris,

When you say "bend" refering to draw shots do you mean any tension in the shaft what so ever? If you don't drop your elbow you will always bend, or have tension on, the shaft. Thanks for your reply.
 
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Rackin_Zack said:
Chris,

When you say "bend" refering to draw shots do you ean any tension in the shaft what so ever? If you don't drop your elbow you will always bend, or have tension on, the shaft. Thanks for your reply.
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i dont think many want to post on this, but personaly think if the cue isnt obviously abused it should be, i think its funny how this. happens to some more than others. you can usuall tell if a cue has been too hot or cold, and i dont think bending the shaft during play has any effect unless you have a mark you position the same all the time, and only then if you used it to break like siegal.
 
Rackin_Zack said:
Chris,

When you say "bend" refering to draw shots do you ean any tension in the shaft what so ever? If you don't drop your elbow you will always bend, or have tension on, the shaft. Thanks for your reply.
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the shaft bends on every single shot, just like an arrow leaving a bow.
 
merylane said:
i dont think many want to post on this, but personaly think if the cue isnt obviously abused it should be, i think its funny how this. happens to some more than others. you can usuall tell if a cue has been too hot or cold, and i dont think bending the shaft during play has any effect unless you have a mark you position the same all the time, and only then if you used it to break like siegal.
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If the cue is in a good case (instroke, whitten, talisman, justis, etc) how would not having air conditioning at home be to the cues? I would say it sometimes gets to between 100-110 on a few occasions during a typical summer. I know cars can get much hotter than this so what is the advisable range of temps to keep the cues in? How are these various cases when it comes to humidity resistance?
 
Rackin_Zack said:
If the cue is in a good case (instroke, whitten, talisman, justis, etc) how would not having air conditioning at home be to the cues? I would say it sometimes gets to between 100-110 on a few occasions during a typical summer. I know cars can get much hotter than this so what is the advisable range of temps to keep the cues in? How are these various cases when it comes to humidity resistance?
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not sure of the exact temp range but one thing for sure
if your comfortable the cue is definatley comfortable, just treat it like your favorite pet, it probably cost more so doesnt it deserve it.

as far as car temps go... vegas 120 so what do you think the temp would be inside? or green bay somthing -0 . i think every one agrees you shouldnt keep your cue in the car.
 
merylane said:
i dont think many want to post on this, but personaly think if the cue isnt obviously abused it should be, i think its funny how this. happens to some more than others. you can usuall tell if a cue has been too hot or cold, and i dont think bending the shaft during play has any effect unless you have a mark you position the same all the time, and only then if you used it to break like siegal.
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 A number of years ago at the BCA Trade Show there was a table set up for checking breaking speed of people. A number of Pros and normal players were breaking at their top speed going for the record ( won by Sammy Jones by the way ). Anyway, there was a couple of jointed cues there for people to use in their breaking efforts and after three days of extra hard breaking those shafts looked like cork screws.
Dick
 
rhncue said:
A number of years ago at the BCA Trade Show there was a table set up for checking breaking speed of people. A number of Pros and normal players were breaking at their top speed going for the record ( won by Sammy Jones by the way ). Anyway, there was a couple of jointed cues there for people to use in their breaking efforts and after three days of extra hard breaking those shafts looked like cork screws.
Dick
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Welcome to AZ Dick.
 
rhncue said:
A number of years ago at the BCA Trade Show there was a table set up for checking breaking speed of people. A number of Pros and normal players were breaking at their top speed going for the record ( won by Sammy Jones by the way ). Anyway, there was a couple of jointed cues there for people to use in their breaking efforts and after three days of extra hard breaking those shafts looked like cork screws.
Dick
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i dont think the cues they were using were of the caliber being discussed here.
 
Shaft taper is also a consideration for warpage. Shafts with long pro tapers are much more likely to warp over shafts that have a meatier taper. Snooker shafts rarely warp because they are a straight taper from the joint to the ferrule. I know the question is really about the warranty but I thought this was worth mentioning. Cuemakers spend a lot of time selecting good shaft wood with minimal grain runout, (usually that means quarter sawn maple) and stabilizing the woods with Nelsonite so they will neither absorb or release moisture especially when moved from one climate to another. I also think that one of the biggest factors cuemakers do not guarantee their shafts against warpage that even when all precautions have been taken, when the cue is sold...it's likely the first time the shaftwood has seen anything other than a climate controlled environment since is was a 1" dowel. Even if that goes well, you still have a piece of wood that over 70% of it's length doesn't have any type of finish on it. All of this combined with some of the other factors like how is was cleaned...water and soft scrub...or some other cleaner that uses a lot of moisture.....yikes!!! Guaranteeing a shaft won't warp is like trying to guarantee what the weather will be like in 8 weeks....
 
Pancerny said:
Shaft taper is also a consideration for warpage. Shafts with long pro tapers are much more likely to warp over shafts that have a meatier taper. Snooker shafts rarely warp because they are a straight taper from the joint to the ferrule. I know the question is really about the warranty but I thought this was worth mentioning. Cuemakers spend a lot of time selecting good shaft wood with minimal grain runout, (usually that means quarter sawn maple) and stabilizing the woods with Nelsonite so they will neither absorb or release moisture especially when moved from one climate to another. I also think that one of the biggest factors cuemakers do not guarantee their shafts against warpage that even when all precautions have been taken, when the cue is sold...it's likely the first time the shaftwood has seen anything other than a climate controlled environment since is was a 1" dowel. Even if that goes well, you still have a piece of wood that over 70% of it's length doesn't have any type of finish on it. All of this combined with some of the other factors like how is was cleaned...water and soft scrub...or some other cleaner that uses a lot of moisture.....yikes!!! Guaranteeing a shaft won't warp is like trying to guarantee what the weather will be like in 8 weeks....
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i dont know anycuemakers sending out shafts with just bare wood, theres always some sort of finnish. if you are saying you dont put anything on your wood then your the first i know of ? but if your at least using nelsonite, it doesnt sound like you think it would make a difference.

you mention 8 weeks, what if the prob. occured say in 30 days? 15?
or even upon recieving it, then what?
 
I said that guaranteeing that a shaft won't ever warp is like trying to guarantee what the weather will be like in 8 weeks....the weather. I do put something on my shafts and I think you'll find most cuemakers do not put a urethane finish on the whole shaft like they do on the rest of the cue. Past the first few inches, it's usually burnished and waxed and then finished with a sanding sealer. This will seal out a lot of stuff. If you have dirt in your shaft then you can pretty much conclude that moisture can leave or enter the cue at the same spot....it's not protected like the rest of the cue. Nelsonite helps to slow down the process of moisture absorption or release...it doesn't prevent it.
The end grain in a shaft is usually a big spot where cues will absorb or release moisture too. That's how the tree moves moisture through it and leaving the end grain open can cause huge problems.
I have shafts that I made for customers over 10 years ago and they are still dead straight. Some people know how to take care of a cue...some don't!!
 
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