Referee question: Is a miscue automatically a foul?

N

Nico

Banned
I'm not referring to those times when someone miscues and fails to contact one of their object balls, that's an obvious and clear foul. I'm referring to those times when there is a miscue and you pocket your called shot anyway.

WPA standardized rules,

3.3 STRIKING CUE BALL
Legal shots require that the cue ball be struck only with the cue tip. Failure to meet this requirement is a foul.

Now as everyone knows a miscue is when the ferrule or shaft makes contact with the cueball producing that high pitch distinct sound. So technically speaking something 'other' than the cuetip has made contact with the cueball. Should it be considered a foul and even though the shooter pocketed their ball, should they lose their turn at the table and give the opponent BIH?.

There are no rules that flat out say that a miscue is a foul, but by inference of rules like 3.3, can we judge that it is a foul?.

I'm sure this one will be hottly contested.
 
There has been many posts on the debate of should it be an automatic foul or not, as per the current rules I dont think it is a foul just because of the miscue (but Im not a ref).

But if the shot you are shooting is a jump shot or a masse, I do belive any miscue is considered a foul. If Im wrong, someone please correct me.

Woody
 
woody_968 said:
There has been many posts on the debate of should it be an automatic foul or not, as per the current rules I dont think it is a foul just because of the miscue (but Im not a ref).

But if the shot you are shooting is a jump shot or a masse, I do belive any miscue is considered a foul. If Im wrong, someone please correct me.

Woody
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Correct Woody!!

Barbara
 
All I can say is that in 40+ years of playing pool, I've never seen a foul called on a miscue, so long as OB or CB hit a rail or a ball was pocketed. All the times I've miscued, I hit the CB with the tip; in fact, you can almost always see exactly where you miscued on the tip. I don't know how a player could hit the CB with the ferrule unless the tip was worn down to almost nothing, or a complete beginner, but, if it's possible, some pool player has accomplished it.
 
There is some good slow motion video on a guys site (think it is Dr Dave from CCB) that shows how the shaft can and often does contact the cueball on a miscue. The links are on my other computer so I cant post them now, but if knowone has posted them before I get a chance Ill try and put them up.

Woody
 
What about those times when you're shooting a stun/draw shot and you accidently miscue and jump the cue ball. The object ball is still pocketed but because of the unintentional miscue, you've performed an illegal jump shot. I know most of the time, players just let it slide and keep playing but under strict rules would that be considered a foul?
 
Sharkeyes said:
What about those times when you're shooting a stun/draw shot and you accidently miscue and jump the cue ball. The object ball is still pocketed but because of the unintentional miscue, you've performed an illegal jump shot. I know most of the time, players just let it slide and keep playing but under strict rules would that be considered a foul?
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The rule used to be that unintentional jumps from low english were not a foul. Only intentional jumps by scooping qualified as fouls. Don't know what the rule is now.

Cheers,
RC
 
sixpack said:
The rule used to be that unintentional jumps from low english were not a foul. Only intentional jumps by scooping qualified as fouls. Don't know what the rule is now.

Cheers,
RC
Click to expand...

That is still the case in the BCA general rules. (No changes to this section were listed in the 2006 rules update recently posted). However the rules also state if the ferrule or shaft contacts the cue ball it can still be called a foul. I guess the question is how blatantly obvious the contact is:

3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (“digs under” or “lofts” the cue ball) and intentionally causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur accidentally, and such “jumps” are not to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot
 
Rightq

AuntyDan said:
That is still the case in the BCA general rules. (No changes to this section were listed in the 2006 rules update recently posted). However the rules also state if the ferrule or shaft contacts the cue ball it can still be called a foul. I guess the question is how blatantly obvious the contact is:

3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (“digs under” or “lofts” the cue ball) and intentionally causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur accidentally, and such “jumps” are not to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot
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Thats the problem, you cant see that, as you cannot tell if the cue is raised 45 degrees, like in who's opinion. You need a laser measure or slow mo to see any of that. NO FOUL.
 
woody_968 said:
There is some good slow motion video on a guys site (think it is Dr Dave from CCB) that shows how the shaft can and often does contact the cueball on a miscue. The links are on my other computer so I cant post them now, but if knowone has posted them before I get a chance Ill try and put them up.

Woody
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Here's that slo-mo clip of a miscue, Click here

The very sound a miscue makes proves that the ferrule made contact with the CB. That high-pitch plasticy sound is the ferrule glancing off the CB. Just because you don't actually see it occuring doesn't mean it didn't happen, it's just at the moment of impact, a player is usually looking at the object ball.

I'm aware of the rule for jump shot miscues, but I'm talking about a level stroke where extreme english is being applied. There would be a clear and very audible miscue sound, but the OB still drops. Like if the object ball was in the mouth of a pocket and despite your best miscue you still made it.:D

I've never actually called a foul on anyone for this, but after reading the WPA and BCA rules I got to thinking, technically it SHOULD be a foul.
 
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Under BCA rules, contacting the cue ball in play with anything other than the cue tip is a foul. During a miscue, the ferule or shaft may contact the cue ball. If the referee can clearly determine that this occurred, a foul will be called. The problem is that the referee may not be able to conclusively determine that this did occur. The referee will not rely on the sounds made during the shot to make their decision since sounds are not considered clear proof of what may have occurred. Instead, the referee will watch the cue ball’s path. If the miscue altered the path of the cue ball, a foul will be called. If not, a foul will not be called.

A foul is always called if a miscue occurs during a jump shot.
 
Mark Avlon said:
Under BCA rules, contacting the cue ball in play with anything other than the cue tip is a foul. During a miscue, the ferule or shaft may contact the cue ball. If the referee can clearly determine that this occurred, a foul will be called. The problem is that the referee may not be able to conclusively determine that this did occur. The referee will not rely on the sounds made during the shot to make their decision since sounds are not considered clear proof of what may have occurred. Instead, the referee will watch the cue ball’s path. If the miscue altered the path of the cue ball, a foul will be called. If not, a foul will not be called.

A foul is always called if a miscue occurs during a jump shot.
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How about on a slow follow?
I called a player foul on a shot one time when he was trying to hit the cb very high and a little soft.
It was obvious after he miscued the cb with the side of the ferrule.
 
most miscues are fouls, but they don't get called

i believe that in about 90% of miscues the ferrule, the side of the tip or even the shaft contacts the cb. of course this technically would be a foul. im not saying miscues should be called fouls here, im just saying that they are technically bad hits (or double hits) the vast majority of the time imo.
 
Nico said:
Here's that slo-mo clip of a miscue, Click here

The very sound a miscue makes proves that the ferrule made contact with the CB. That high-pitch plasticy sound is the ferrule glancing off the CB. Just because you don't actually see it occuring doesn't mean it didn't happen, it's just at the moment of impact, a player is usually looking at the object ball.

I'm aware of the rule for jump shot miscues, but I'm talking about a level stroke where extreme english is being applied. There would be a clear and very audible miscue sound, but the OB still drops. Like if the object ball was in the mouth of a pocket and despite your best miscue you still made it.:D

I've never actually called a foul on anyone for this, but after reading the WPA and BCA rules I got to thinking, technically it SHOULD be a foul.
Click to expand...


that would be a pretty extreme miscue in the video and think it would be a foul because half the shaft is rubbing the ball. I don't think you could call a foul however on a dink miscue where you pocket the object ball, the cue ball never goes offline, and the only indication of a miscue was a sound.
 
I think also that the BCA rule that a foul is created if the ferrule or shaft touch the QB is meant for the situation when you have ball in hand, and instead of placing the Q ball in its final position with your hand, some players move the ball around by stick handling it with the end of the cue
( ferrule & shaft). I believe this situation is what the rule was created for and not a miscue as some unscrupulous players would claim they were only positioning the cue ball for the shot..

In respect to the video, it qualifies it by stating there is no chalk on the tip
( now who would honestly have no chalk on their tip if they were playing in a tournament or a match.) And notice that at least the full pro taper is appearing in the video, but no sign of anyones hand. I would find it very difficult to play pool without my hand being on part of the taper during the shot......

Just my opinion
 
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