Roll-out ( 2 fouls, ball in hand )

Michael Andros

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
When I first learned to play 9 ball ( and for many years after ), there was no such thing as 1 foul, ball in hand. The standing rule was 2 fouls, ball in hand ( Roll-out or Push-out ). Buddy Hall was quoted some years ago as saying 1 foul had been the death of the spot shot, something he didn't really like much. I've heard in more than a few places that one foul was introduced as tournaments became more commonly televised and one foul was supposed to speed the game up. My feeling is, it's done the opposite. Yes, safety play has certainly become an art form but at the same time, some games can go on for what seems forever with players using safeties on almost every shot. There are strategies involved in playing either 1 or 2 fouls but of course they are very different strategies and I have always missed Roll-out mainly for that reason. I also feel one foul has created a game where many times offense is taken out of play. By that, I mean in a lot of circumstances, a player doesn't go for a shot anymore, but instead, if there is any difficulty to the shot, the player simply ducks.


How does everyone feel about Roll-out as opposed to one foul? Does anyone play 2 fouls anymore? I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on it. Personally, I miss spot shots.

( my apologies if this has been covered here prior )
 
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Michael Andros said:
When I first learned to play 9 ball ( and for many years after ), there was no such thing as 1 foul, ball in hand. The standing rule was 2 fouls, ball in hand ( Roll-out or Push-out ). Buddy Hall was quoted some years ago as saying 1 foul had been the death of the spot shot, something he didn't really like much. I've heard in more than a few places that one foul was introduced as tournaments became more commonly televised and one foul was supposed to speed the game up. My feeling is, it's done the opposite. Yes, safety play has certainly become an art form but at the same time, some games can go on for what seems forever with players using safeties on almost every shot. There are strategies involved in playing either 1 or 2 fouls but of course they were very different strategies and I have always missed Roll-out mainly for that reason. I also feel one foul has created a game where many times offense is taken out of play. By that, I mean in a lot of circumstances, a player doesn't go for a shot anymore, but instead, if there is any difficulty to the shot, the player simply ducks.


How does everyone feel about Roll-out as opposed to one foul? Does anyone play 2 fouls anymore? I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on it. Personally, I miss spot shots.

( my apologies if this has been covered here prior )
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Its the only way we played for quite a long time. Nobody plays that way anymore. It wasn't just spot shots either. RO had a lot of strategy as in learning what your opponent did and didn't like to shoot. You might push to a shot you knew they wouldn't like and let you shoot. Great way to play for $$$. Afraid its deader than HulaHoop tho.
 
garczar said:
Its the only way we played for quite a long time. Nobody plays that way anymore. It wasn't just spot shots either. RO had a lot of strategy as in learning what your opponent did and didn't like to shoot. You might push to a shot you knew they wouldn't like and let you shoot. Great way to play for $$$. Afraid its deader than HulaHoop tho.
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I asked a kid in the room not long ago to play RO and he was lost. Even when I explained it to him. At one point he said "This is dumb. I can't make you kick at balls AND I have to either shoot at balls all the time or let you shoot at them."

And I was like... E X A C T L Y
 
I cannot agree. I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with
a great safety battle. Some
of the best games I've seen were well
executed safety battles. The RO you refer to
reminds my too much of someone's made up
bar rules.

And I've never thought of 9 ball as a game
that takes too long. For example.... many games are done with a 9 ball combo.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
I cannot agree. I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with
a great safety battle. Some
of the best games I've seen were well
executed safety battles. The RO you refer to
reminds my too much of someone's made up
bar rules.

And I've never thought of 9 ball as a game
that takes too long. For example.... many games are done with a 9 ball combo.
Click to expand...

I can't fault you at all for feeling that way. I'm assuming you've never played RO. It's a much different mind-set when that's the way a person learned it from the get-go. For people who learned the game as one foul, it makes perfect sense they would think of RO as some kind of gaff rule.

And it's not a question of the game taking "Too long", simply a matter of it taking longer playing one foul than playing two.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
I cannot agree. I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with
a great safety battle. Some
of the best games I've seen were well
executed safety battles. The RO you refer to
reminds my too much of someone's made up
bar rules.

And I've never thought of 9 ball as a game
that takes too long. For example.... many games are done with a 9 ball combo.
Click to expand...
That's your choice and that's cool. But the game was always played 2shot until TexasExpress-style rules came along to speed-up tournaments. 9ball was designed as a shooting game as opposed to ducking. Has one-foul improved the game overall? Don't think so. It has made the cloth sellers and jump-cue makers happy though.
 
garczar said:
That's your choice and that's cool. But the game was always played 2shot until TexasExpress-style rules came along to speed-up tournaments. 9ball was designed as a shooting game as opposed to ducking. Has one-foul improved the game overall? Don't think so. It has made the cloth sellers and jump-cue makers happy though.
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Funny you should say that, Gar... I was going to say in the initial post "But I'm sure the jump-cue industry LOVES one foul!" but then I said to myself, nahhh... it's Easter. Be nice. :D
 
Michael Andros said:
Funny you should say that, Gar... I was going to say in the initial post "But I'm sure the jump-cue industry LOVES one foul!" but then I said to myself, nahhh... it's Easter. Be nice. :D
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Ever play at Baker's? Saw you're in Fl. Heard a million tales about that place. Too bad its gone.
 
garczar said:
That's your choice and that's cool. But the game was always played 2shot until TexasExpress-style rules came along to speed-up tournaments. 9ball was designed as a shooting game as opposed to ducking. Has one-foul improved the game overall? Don't think so. It has made the cloth sellers and jump-cue makers happy though.
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Then stop pushing out for a bank.

Here, I will show you: see, we shoot the bank and play shape on the OTHER side of the ball.

Wait. You are pushing out? What are you doing? I put that ball there on purpose. You have to shoot from there.
 
Shenanigans said:
Are there any video's around of pro's playing with these rules?
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Probably not... it died out pretty much before people started video-taping matches. That said, I'm sure someone somewhere has video/film of RO being played.

I guarantee you this, though... looking at your avatar here, I promise you Earl grew up playing RO. Everyone who learned 9 ball prior to @ 75 or so played RO. :)
 
Michael Andros said:
Probably not... it died out pretty much before people started video-taping matches. That said, I'm sure someone somewhere has video/film of RO being played.

I guarantee you this, though... looking at your avatar here, I promise you Earl grew up playing RO. Everyone who learned 9 ball prior to @ 75 or so played RO. :)
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I started here in Tulsa in the fall of '78. By '82-'83 one-foul was making inroads. By '85 it was all one-foul/Tex.Express. Some still gambled at 2shot but all tournaments were one-foul by then. That was the reason for it, to speed-up tournaments.
 
I love it when my opponent plays safe rather than taking a shot at the run out. I have to laugh when I hear someone cry about being played safe when there was a shot available. I look at it as a free chance. I seem to recall Tony Chohan when questioned about his aggressive one pocket, something to the effect of, at that level he does not want them at the table period.

In a mixed scotch doubles 8 ball tournament my partner scratched when we were down to 2 balls. They had 5 or 6 balls on the table and all were open, no problem balls. The male opponent played a safety and gave me a real smug look! In 8 ball there is no 3 foul rule, so I assumed he thought it would put me on tilt. I called the ball and kicked 3 rails pocketing it and we got out. I love a free shot.
 
garczar said:
I started here in Tulsa in the fall of '78. By '82-'83 one-foul was making inroads. By '85 it was all one-foul/Tex.Express. Some still gambled at 2shot but all tournaments were one-foul by then. That was the reason for it, to speed-up tournaments.
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Yupperz... only, to me, it only slowed it down. Sometimes now, 1 game takes 15 minutes to play. That NEVER happened in RO.

Plus, damn it, I miss spot shots!

I still remember the first time someone asked me to gamble playing one foul. I looked at him like he was from Jupiter. Within 3 years or so, you couldn't match up with anyone and not play one foul.

And somewhere, far off in the distance... a dog howled.
 
gregcantrall said:
I love it when my opponent plays safe rather than taking a shot at the run out. I have to laugh when I hear someone cry about being played safe when there was a shot available. I look at it as a free chance. I seem to recall Tony Chohan when questioned about his aggressive one pocket, something to the effect of, at that level he does not want them at the table period.

In a mixed scotch doubles 8 ball tournament my partner scratched when we were down to 2 balls. They had 5 or 6 balls on the table and all were open, no problem balls. The male opponent played a safety and gave me a real smug look! In 8 ball there is no 3 foul rule, so I assumed he thought it would put me on tilt. I called the ball and kicked 3 rails pocketing it and we got out. I love a free shot.
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Actually, that's one of the things I liked most about RO, if your opponent didn't like a shot, instead of hooking you, he would push out to a place he thought he might make that you wouldn't want to shoot. But, if you play better than him, in most cases, it's gonna be a free shot you can probably make a good % that he's maybe a 50/50 on. So, free shot, then run on out.

And if he scratched and the money's behind the head string, I get a SPOT SHOT!!! :thumbup:
 
Grew up playing RO. Very strategic game. The only jump shots you saw were full cue jumps.

Regarding jump cues- hey are so prevalent today that if anybody did play RO, I imagine your real good jumpers would push to a tough jump.

Oh and we used to practice spot shots!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
RobMan said:
Grew up playing RO. Very strategic game. The only jump shots you saw were full cue jumps.

Regarding jump cues- hey are so prevalent today that if anybody did play RO, I imagine your real good jumpers would push to a tough jump.

Oh and we used to practice spot shots!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We used to practice "no-look" spot shots. Then, once pretty well mastered, we started setting up/address the ball for the no-look spot shot, but then with head turned, slide the cue out, touch the tip to the floor, put it back, then make the spot shot, all no-look. Pretty snazzy to see ( pun intended ).

Speaking of pushing to a jump shot, I saw a Youtube of Leung ( the Chinese WORLD BEATER ) doing that. Pushed out to a dead hook, opposing player gave him the shot, he jumps, then runs out. Strongggg medicine.
 
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Michael Andros said:
Actually, that's one of the things I liked most about RO, if your opponent didn't like a shot, instead of hooking you, he would push out to a place he thought he might make that you wouldn't want to shoot. But, if you play better than him, in most cases, it's gonna be a free shot you can probably make a good % that he's maybe a 50/50 on. So, free shot, then run on out.

And if he scratched and the money's behind the head string, I get a SPOT SHOT!!! :thumbup:
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I definitely like and appreciate the strategy in roll out. I told this story once already in here a while back. Hope it is the same this time.:wink:

It was a bar box race to three with one push after the break. We were hill hill with me breaking. I was playing a real player. I had seen him bust Cole Dickson.

I made a ball on the break but had no shot on the one, which was about six inches off the side rail at about the second diamond. The five nine was a dead wired combination about four inches off the foot rail between the middle and first diamond. I had been practicing my kick shots a lot and could see kicking the one to bank into the five nine. The one was just the right distance off the rail and the five nine was a big target due to their proximity to the rail.

My problem was if I saw it, I figure he will too. If I rolled to the straight kick, he would surely like it too. So I tried to roll to a position that was hard but make able . I hit the roll out too hard and even though the one was behind the seven the kick was a natural. I was disgusted with myself and showed a little disappointment.

He had never seen me play and assumed I was disappointed that it was hooked. He gave it back to me from his chair.😱

It was a losers bracket match so after I made the shot, he spent the rest of the evening telling how he got knocked out by a 'no shooting son of a gun' that got lucky.
 
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