round points,,,,,a sell out

[billfishhead]

i thought i was an average cue buyer myself

a couple Barry Szambotis all with four shafts, a Gus Szamboti, Rizzo, couple of Jensens, couple of Meuccis from when I didnt know better, a HB i dont like, 2 Barbers and too many others and a 68-72 Joss with an ivory joint

just passed on a Scruggs and Josswest

 

[bandido]

i thought i was an average cue buyer myself

a couple Barry Szambotis all with four shafts, a Gus Szamboti, Rizzo, couple of Jensens, couple of Meuccis from when I didnt know better, a HB i dont like, 2 Barbers and too many others and a 68-72 Joss with an ivory joint

just passed on a Scruggs and Josswest

I'm pretty sure that the "average" that's being referred to here doesn't mean the same as the "average" that you're referring to. The "average" that I and Blackcreek refer to is a statistic like something that Pool magazines come out with annually. You know,.. when they gather data through a survey and asks "How many cues do you purchase a year?" and "How much do you spend for a cue?". So its more of what a survey comes up with. How else?....think, think...!!! Peg a budget and find a cue that will do?

I guess your "average" tends to lean more towards those who are knowledgeable and appreciative of the craft.

 

[billfishhead]

hey man Im on a budget,,,,,,remember I passed on the Scruggs and Josswest. But when a Szamboti comes up at a good price Ill find the cash. Too bad Barry has such a backlog or Id get him to make me another.,,,,,,,,,,,,,btw, Barry if you read this I still want that window cue. I had a heart attack, but Im still moving.

 

[bandido]

hey man Im on a budget,,,,,,remember I passed on the Scruggs and Josswest. But when a Szamboti comes up at a good price Ill find the cash. Too bad Barry has such a backlog or Id get him to make me another.,,,,,,,,,,,,,btw, Barry if you read this I still want that window cue. I had a heart attack, but Im still moving.

So were everybody on my list! I tell them "Give me a budget, hand me your wishlist then allow me to create something for you". Simple

 

[cueandcushion]

Not a sell out...

do you consider round points (milled) a sell out and rounded diamonds on a cue a cheap sell out ?

a milling machine has its place, but come on guys lets hog out the material and then sharpen up those corners

Not a sell out by any means. People want cheap prices; means they want cheap workmanship. You are paying more in labor in most nice cues than actual cost of wood. More hours=more labor= more cost. DUH! People that want $1500 cues with razor points, custom veneers, silver inlays, ivory ferrules and joints, extra shaft, and lifetime warranty ...but OH WAIT...they only got $300 to spend. We live in AMERICA people. You know...a CAPITALIST economy. You get what you pay for. If you cant afford it...work a second job, or choose the cheap import copy. You can just tell your friends its the real thing...Half of them wont know anyway.

 

[hadjcues]

Yes we do both and yes we do charge appropiately!

How much of a difference would it be?
Does the work required translate to the price difference?
I'm confused here, since IMO those round points came about 'coz when the endmill makes a turn at the apex of the point, it leaves a curved path... and leaving it at that

Hadjcues

 

[billfishhead]

Duhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,people pay 1200-1500 for a schon with rounded points,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now thats a rip off

 

[Sheldon]

How much of a difference would it be?
Does the work required translate to the price difference?
I'm confused here, since IMO those round points came about 'coz when the endmill makes a turn at the apex of the point, it leaves a curved path... and leaving it at that

It requires tool changes, much more intelligent toolpath programming, and more expensive and breakable bits to reduce the radius used at the tips of pockets. Also, when you cut long points very thin at the end, they become quite fragile and care must be taken to have them come out right. Improper toolpaths will have them mis-shaped or shredded.
I have yet to try 'knifing in" points, but I am sure that it is not easy, and would be very time-consuming. You can get very sharp points if your pockets are cut in very dark materials, but if you are using something light-colored like maple, glue lines and any small errors are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[PetreeCues]

Duhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,people pay 1200-1500 for a schon with rounded points,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now thats a rip off

And look how many sell each year, and for how many years now... lol.

 

[Cue Crazy]

It requires tool changes, much more intelligent toolpath programming, and more expensive and breakable bits to reduce the radius used at the tips of pockets. Also, when you cut long points very thin at the end, they become quite fragile and care must be taken to have them come out right. Improper toolpaths will have them mis-shaped or shredded.
I have yet to try 'knifing in" points, but I am sure that it is not easy, and would be very time-consuming. You can get very sharp points if your pockets are cut in very dark materials, but if you are using something light-colored like maple, glue lines and any small errors are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Well said Sheldon, now just imagine trying to use those small endmills with a manual machine where the feed rate is only as perfect as humanly possible If your lucky.
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that at some point those small bits get real expensive when they break that easy because I'm sure you've broken your share also, and anything super sharp just about has to be knifed. You are correct it is not easy either, and increases the odds of tiny gluelines like you mentioned.
Even when you do a near perfect job and everything press fits nicely, some woods as you mentioned are just very unforgiving, but the darker colors like ebony make getting them very sharp alot easier. The cleanest way to do It would probably be to border everything in black if possible. It's slow going, and You have to put alot of sweat & tears into it, so alot of manual work goes into it, but I can't say I don't want to upgrade, and don't envy a few of you guys setups. All in time though. Greg

 

[hadjcues]

It requires tool changes, much more intelligent toolpath programming, and more expensive and breakable bits to reduce the radius used at the tips of pockets. Also, when you cut long points very thin at the end, they become quite fragile and care must be taken to have them come out right. Improper toolpaths will have them mis-shaped or shredded.
I have yet to try 'knifing in" points, but I am sure that it is not easy, and would be very time-consuming. You can get very sharp points if your pockets are cut in very dark materials, but if you are using something light-colored like maple, glue lines and any small errors are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Yeah I know and understand... thanks for the input... have to get back reading that mastercam thingie here...

 

[bandido]

You can just tell your friends its the real thing...Half of them wont know anyway.

No wonder I have a hard time with this "Stop Cue Art Theft" campaign. The industry for duplicated US custom cue design is thriving because most buyers there will tolerate such practice.

Maybe then it is just best for me not to care as I'm just wasting my breath. It's amazing too that the people that are greatly affected by this practice can't even lend their support. To make it worst, I even get "acting stu*&#d" or smart*^s replies.

Check out this scenario. I've processed and saved enough cuemaking materials that can last me THREE lifetimes. I have developed machinery that is more than adequate for the craft. 6-axis CNC machine that can be set-up to simultaneosly taper 2 shafts or set-up to cut inlays and pockets to the precision of 0.00078125 inch/step or set-up to cut v-splice cavity, make point stock and mitre veneers. Now, I decide to sell these and offer financing or for share of the profit. And the rpoducts made from these get sold by a central company that can do wordwide marketing and distribution.

Ok, let's forget about selling the few-more-steps-before-finish materials and cueaking equipment. What if I just made and sold high quality cnc cut cue parts and sold these instead. The hand-work intensive cuemakers can just send me their designs or purchase ready-made sections then just put them together. This way I can still keep them at a distance from what I create for my cues. What do you think will happen if I didn't care about cue design theft nor doing the product right for the consumer?

Consumers will get quality cnc cut inlays in hand-sharpened inlay cavities. They'll get radial spliced shafts made of North-east hard maple. They'll get Poly-urethane finish that's been hand rubbed. Cues can even be submitted withut the clear-coat as the central company can just hire a team to do that. Customers will get their dream cues whether the design is original or copied from some high$ cue. Quality can be guaranteed since these products are going to be sold through the "central company" that'll do the QC checks during recieving and before shipping out. All in the $200 to $800 price range. Me? I don't have to worry about getting my structure and designs copied. I control that. hmmmmm.........Chaching$$$$$

I think people in the industry who really cares for the craft should help each other to educate the consumers/enthusiasts and the enthusiasts to help in educating others about the craft and to support the craftsmen that show their love for the craft. The world revolves and time won't stand still, it'll never wait for you.

 

[hadjcues]

Very well said Bandido... tap tap tap

 

[billfishhead]

i hear ya talkin about what a hard deal it is when youve gotta knife out the sharp corners. ever think of grinding a tool that will help? starting with a tool called a burin thats used for hand engraving you can create the proper profile on the tool and make the process much easier. They arent expensive, so Id get several and make different angles on them for different cuts.

 

[bandido]

i hear ya talkin about what a hard deal it is when youve gotta knife out the sharp corners. ever think of grinding a tool that will help? starting with a tool called a burin thats used for hand engraving you can create the proper profile on the tool and make the process much easier. They arent expensive, so Id get several and make different angles on them for different cuts.

You're right about the burins. I do prefer to make chisels out of hacksaw blades, broken drill bits and tool steel blanks.

Here's Don P's butt sleeve (right of photo) pic where the inlays' male parts were cnc cut and the female recieving cavities were cut fwith the home-made chisels. The picture quality is real bad as I ended up with a lousy digicam. That's what happens when I rush everytime I leave the comforts of my shop LOL. This junk cam, Kodak CX7300, doesn't have the resolution that can show how sharp the corners are on the mitred ivory frame, amboyna inner window and the 8 rays ivory sun inlay. Sheesh, it can't even show how sharp the corner, of that metal rule, is.

 

[n_den]

Truthfully, probably the best playing cues are plain ones as there isn't wood removed for inlays, making them more solid.
Dick

truly agree with this. less inlays, less adhesives, no wraps.

i'm a `function before fashion` & `KISS` type of guy. IMHO, it just looks cool. nothing more.

many `players` dont really play with a $2500.00 cue. more likely its tucked away.

n_den

 

[billfishhead]

ive got two cues made by the same guy. the first is a plain 4 point cue and the second has a lot of inlay work, but otherwise is the same. I cant feel the difference between them. they both play the same. Thanks for the cues Barry

 

[Sheldon]

Here's what's possible with a little innovation...
Everything is pretty sharp, the veneers are sterling silver, recon turquoise, and Ivory.
I sure love that first cut after gluing in the points... goes from ugly to WOW! real fast.

 

[monski]

Here's what's possible with a little innovation...
Everything is pretty sharp, the veneers are sterling silver, recon turquoise, and Ivory.
I sure love that first cut after gluing in the points... goes from ugly to WOW! real fast.

---------------------
That's nice... really nice.

 

[cvmanning]

WOW, very nice work...


Cliff