Rule Question

[sde]

The other day I was watching an old VHS tape of match from a tourney held at Pockets in Lansing, MI, year and date unknown. The match was between Dick Jaspers and Sang Lee, with Mazin Shooni as the referee and my good friend Al Wier as scorekeeper.

This situation arose, Mr. Jaspers scores a point and his cue ball to rest frozen (?) to the object ball.
Mr. Jaspers looks closely at the balls and asks Mr. Shooni if they are frozen.
Mr. Shooni looks and declares the ball not frozen.
Mr. Jaspers looks at the balls again and said to Mr. Shooni that he believes the balls are frozen and to please look again.
Mr. Shooni looks at the balls again and again says that the ball are not frozen.
Mr. Jaspers looks again and believes the balls are frozen and asks Mr. Lee to look at the balls.
Mr. Lee looks and says that the balls are frozen.
Mr. Jaspers, Mr. Shooni and Mr. Lee talk for a moment and Mr. Shooni spots the the frozen (?) balls, for Mr. Jaspers to continue his inning.
Note: I could not hear the conversation, so the above are not actual quotes, but rather based on gestures and facial expressions.

My question: Is this a normal occurrence, where the two players can agree on a call and overturn the referees decision? I have never seen this before and would just like to know.

 

[mbvl]

It's not normal, but it's not unheard of, either. The referee's ruling is supreme. However, the joint opinion of two world-class players can be intimidating.

Here are a couple of situations I personally witnessed.

Sang Lee vs Sayginer: Sang Lee shoots a cross table shot where he needed to pick up the third rail just before the second ball which was frozen to the short cushion. The referee rules the shot good. Mr. Lee says he doesn't think so. Mr. Sayginer says he wasn't is a good position to tell. They all look at the video tape. Still not clear. Mr. Lee refuses to take the point, the referee relents, and Mr Sayginer takes over the table.

Daniel Sanchez vs Miguel Torres: Dani shoots short-long-short and very slowly approaches the second object ball. From my vantage point, looking directly along the line of travel, I thought I saw the balls touch. The referee rules no billiard. Sanchez insists he scored. The video tape is inconclusive. The head referee and tournament director huddle. Finally they all agree -- the referee's word is final. Torres turn to shoot.

Mark

 

[sde]

It's not normal, but it's not unheard of, either. The referee's ruling is supreme. However, the joint opinion of two world-class players can be intimidating.

Here are a couple of situations I personally witnessed.

Sang Lee vs Sayginer: Sang Lee shoots a cross table shot where he needed to pick up the third rail just before the second ball which was frozen to the short cushion. The referee rules the shot good. Mr. Lee says he doesn't think so. Mr. Sayginer says he wasn't is a good position to tell. They all look at the video tape. Still not clear. Mr. Lee refuses to take the point, the referee relents, and Mr Sayginer takes over the table.

Daniel Sanchez vs Miguel Torres: Dani shoots short-long-short and very slowly approaches the second object ball. From my vantage point, looking directly along the line of travel, I thought I saw the balls touch. The referee rules no billiard. Sanchez insists he scored. The video tape is inconclusive. The head referee and tournament director huddle. Finally they all agree -- the referee's word is final. Torres turn to shoot.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the reply.

I understand the the referee's word being final but it is also important that the correct call be made, so IMHO it is the sign of a good referee to change a call when presented with new information that shows the original call was not correct. Not to say the a referee should be bullied into changing a call.

Steve

 

[mullyman]

Sometimes you get balls that are like a pubic hair apart from each other. So close that you're not 100% sure if they are touching or not, probably like what the OP is talking about here. In my opinion, if there is any question if they are touching or not then they should be ruled as touching. And what I mean by that is if they're so close that you just can't tell without a magnifying glass.
MULLY

 

[jimshovak]

I had a similar situation when I was refereeing a match between Pedro Piedrabuena and Luis Aveiga. Pedro shot a 3 rail shot to the last object ball which was almost frozen to the rail. He hit it very hard. It looked to me like it was not a good point. But both Pedro and Aveiga thought that the point was good. If I had been 100% sure that the point was not good, I would have insisted. But I was not. So, since both of the other players were adamant about it, I gave in to their opinions. The important thing is to get the call right, if possible. It is not about power or ego.

So, the rule is this: it is 100% up to the referee. But the referee can change his mind if he wishes and give in to the player or players. Either way, it's still up to the referee, not the players.