Rule question

[nyjoe14.1]

The situation is this: my cue ball is approx. 3" from the short rail ( in the middle where the manufacture logo is) the red ball is buried in the corner about 25" away. The other ball is about 4" strait out of the apex of the opposite corner on the same end of the table. I tried to play a double kiss off the red, rail first in the hopes of hitting the short rail again, then the long rail and finally the remaining ball to score.

What happened was after hitting the rail, the cue hit the red and came off frozen to the rail. Almost hitting the remaining ball.

My question is if the ball is moving while truly frozen to the rail does this count as an infinite number of rails therefore more than 3? Or would it be 1 rail, or none? If this is only 1 rail is it stated somewhere how long the ball must be without contact to the same rail to count as a second hit?

My gut reaction to this question is that it would only be 1 rail, but as I am relatively new to 3 cushion I thought I'd ask.

 

[mbvl]

The situation is this: my cue ball is approx. 3" from the short rail ( in the middle where the manufacture logo is) the red ball is buried in the corner about 25" away. The other ball is about 4" strait out of the apex of the opposite corner on the same end of the table. I tried to play a double kiss off the red, rail first in the hopes of hitting the short rail again, then the long rail and finally the remaining ball to score.

What happened was after hitting the rail, the cue hit the red and came off frozen to the rail. Almost hitting the remaining ball.

My question is if the ball is moving while truly frozen to the rail does this count as an infinite number of rails therefore more than 3? Or would it be 1 rail, or none? If this is only 1 rail is it stated somewhere how long the ball must be without contact to the same rail to count as a second hit?

My gut reaction to this question is that it would only be 1 rail, but as I am relatively new to 3 cushion I thought I'd ask.

I think this is a very good question, and I hope you get an unequivocal response (but I'm not holding my breath.)

I have many things to say, and I'm not sure where to begin.

First of all, it is very difficult (if not impossible) for a ball to move along a cushion while staying in constant contact with the cushion. IMO the ball always leaves the cushion perceptively and then returns. But that doesn't answer all the questions.

It is certainly possible to use masse to cause the ball to make multiple contacts with a single cushion, and very little elevation is required to get two or three distinct contacts. However, I once saw a very young, inexperienced player slow roll the ball down a rail using the rail groove to keep the ball returning back to the rail. He claimed that this should count as multiple contacts. I disagree, but what is the definitive answer?

Here's another problematical situation. Suppose the shooter plays a "ticky" where the first ball is less than a ball width from the cushion. The cue ball clearly hits the cushion first, then the ball, and returns toward the cushion. But since the cue ball "sinks into the cushion", it is quite possible IMO that the cue ball is still in contact with the cushion when contacting the object ball, and is therefore still completing its first contact when sent back toward that cushion after hitting the object ball. Should this count as two distinct contacts with the rail? As an experienced player and referee, I always count this as two cushions, but is that right? I have played in rooms and under "house rules" where such a shot is not allowed to count as two cushions.

Mark

 

[cuetable]

The situation is this: my cue ball is approx. 3" from the short rail ( in the middle where the manufacture logo is) the red ball is buried in the corner about 25" away. The other ball is about 4" strait out of the apex of the opposite corner on the same end of the table. I tried to play a double kiss off the red, rail first in the hopes of hitting the short rail again, then the long rail and finally the remaining ball to score.

What happened was after hitting the rail, the cue hit the red and came off frozen to the rail. Almost hitting the remaining ball.

My question is if the ball is moving while truly frozen to the rail does this count as an infinite number of rails therefore more than 3? Or would it be 1 rail, or none? If this is only 1 rail is it stated somewhere how long the ball must be without contact to the same rail to count as a second hit?

My gut reaction to this question is that it would only be 1 rail, but as I am relatively new to 3 cushion I thought I'd ask.

Hi Joe:

I'd like to invite you to use 3cCueTable, which might help you explain the shot a little better.

Do you mean this in your first post?

http://CueTable.com/C/?@1AXYl4BAOd4CbKj4VAOd4VYfb4ValV4VbSP1Vbbb@

 

[WesleyW]

The situation is this: my cue ball is approx. 3" from the short rail ( in the middle where the manufacture logo is) the red ball is buried in the corner about 25" away. The other ball is about 4" strait out of the apex of the opposite corner on the same end of the table. I tried to play a double kiss off the red, rail first in the hopes of hitting the short rail again, then the long rail and finally the remaining ball to score.

What happened was after hitting the rail, the cue hit the red and came off frozen to the rail. Almost hitting the remaining ball.

My question is if the ball is moving while truly frozen to the rail does this count as an infinite number of rails therefore more than 3? Or would it be 1 rail, or none? If this is only 1 rail is it stated somewhere how long the ball must be without contact to the same rail to count as a second hit?

My gut reaction to this question is that it would only be 1 rail, but as I am relatively new to 3 cushion I thought I'd ask.

If I'm not wrong, you always need to hit an other rail, before you count it as a second or third cushion. So if the CB hit the long rail (one cushion). The second cushion must be one of the other 3 rails. And the third cushion must be one of the other rail of the opposite of the second cushion. But when you hit the cushion first, and than hit the object ball and hit the same cushion again, it will count as two cushions.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[WesleyW]

If I'm not wrong, you always need to hit an other rail, before you count it as a second or third cushion. So if the CB hit the long rail (one cushion). The second cushion must be one of the other 3 rails. And the third cushion must be one of the other rail of the opposite of the second cushion. But when you hit the cushion first, and than hit the object ball and hit the same cushion again, it will count as two cushions.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I correct meself .

Strange rule, but UMB says:

Article 83 - Three cushions
As far as three cushions is concerned the cue-ball must have come into contact at least three times with one or several cushions before touching the second object-ball if not there will be a foul (indicated by "no cushion" or "one cushion" or "two cushions").

 

[mbvl]

Here's the applicable paragraph from the USBA site:

"3. A three-cushion count means three impacts. These impacts need not necessarily be on three different cushions to be considered a valid count. A valid count may be executed on one cushion or on two cushions if it is the result of the spin on the ball."

But this doesn't answer the original question. If "the spin on the ball" causes the ball to "hug" the cushion without ever leaving the cushion, how many cushions is that?

Mark

 

[WesleyW]

Here's the applicable paragraph from the USBA site:

"3. A three-cushion count means three impacts. These impacts need not necessarily be on three different cushions to be considered a valid count. A valid count may be executed on one cushion or on two cushions if it is the result of the spin on the ball."

But this doesn't answer the original question. If "the spin on the ball" causes the ball to "hug" the cushion without ever leaving the cushion, how many cushions is that?

Mark

That would be one, because if it isn't comming of the cushion, you can't count it as a second or third cushion hit.