Rules / technicalities question. "bar room" rules lol

ddadams

Absolutely love this cue.
Silver Member
Ok so I was at the bar earlier and this guy walks in who I knew right off the bat was going to be an issue. Walked in with no case or chalk or anything just a shaft and butt that was the sneakiest pete I've seen.

He asks to play a rack and whatever. So as we go along the rules keep changing and changing and he keeps getting mad and madder, and so forth because we couldn't agree on rules. The rules I was using would align with bca/valley/ pretty much any amateur league or professional league except for APA and slop.

I'll admit it straight out the guy is a little better than I am at making shots, so I'm not just all pissed or anything but the last shot he took almost caused a huge scene and it all goes to safety play.


If you're playing a safety and you hit the cue ball into your object ball but NEITHER touches a rail

Fair?
Not fair / ball in hand?
 
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Ok so I was at the bar earlier and this guy walks in who I knew right off the bat was going to be an issue. Walked in with no case or chalk or anything just a shaft and butt that was the sneakiest pete I've seen.

He asks to play a rack and whatever. So as we go along the rules keep changing and changing and he keeps getting mad and madder, and so forth because we couldn't agree on rules. The rules I was using would align with bca/valley/ pretty much any amateur league or professional league except for APA and slop.

I'll admit it straight out the guy is a little better than I am at making shots, so I'm not just all pissed or anything but the last shot he took almost caused a huge scene and it all goes to safety play.


If you're playing a safety and you hit the cue ball into your object ball but NEITHER touches a rail

Fair?
Not fair / ball in hand?

First of all, were you agreed that you were playing "ball in hand" rules? This sounds like one of those "bar player" meets "league player" situations.

Most people who play "bar rules" won't know what the hell you are talking about. Most people who play "bar rules" will frown upon safety play. But if they do "allow" safety play they don't necessarily acknowledge the "making contact with a rail aspect".

Secondly, to address your actual question, you do not give enough information. Did the cue ball or the object ball bump into any other object ball that then subsequently contacted a rail? If so, then no foul.

Basically the rule is that AFTER the initial contact between the cue ball and a/the correct object ball, then ANY ball must contact a rail OR go into a pocket to satisfy the requirement. That's ANY ball on the table, cue ball or ANY object ball. That's assuming you are playing "real" rules, not some local version of bar rules.

More advice to come.

Fatz
 
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First of all, were you agreed that you were playing "ball in hand" rules? This sounds like one of those "bar player" meets "league player" situations.

Most people who play "bar rules" won't know what the hell you are talking about. Most people who play "bar rules" will frown upon safety play. But if they do "allow" safety play they don't necessarily acknowledge the "making contact with a rail aspect".

Secondly, to address your actual question, you do not give enough information. Did the cue ball or the object ball bump into any other object ball that then subsequently contacted a rail? If so, then no foul.

Basically the rule is that AFTER the initial contact between the cue ball and a/the correct object ball, then ANY ball must contact a rail OR go into a pocket to satisfy the requirement. That's ANY ball on the table, cue ball or ANY object ball.

More advice to come.

Fatz

We were playing ball in hand. We agreed on that.


He played a safety. He barely hit his 10 ball to put it right in front of the 8 ball.

NOTHING touched the rail. Cue ball, object ball, nothing else.

He just shot the cue ball ~2 inches and pushed his 10 right in front of the 8. No rail contact on ANYTHING.
 
If the rules kept changing as you kept playing and you allowed that, then anything counts. You could put the game ball in and he could say that you didn't do it with one foot off the ground...

Make sure of all the rules , then ask if anything beyond what you covered is at all unusual to the area or the bar or the player, then stipulate that anything outside the agreed upon rules are non-enforcable.

You will still end up with idiots and problems in the bar scene, but at least you will end up with less problems.
 
If the rules kept changing as you kept playing and you allowed that, then anything counts. You could put the game ball in and he could say that you didn't do it with one foot off the ground...

Make sure of all the rules , then ask if anything beyond what you covered is at all unusual to the area or the bar or the player, then stipulate that anything outside the agreed upon rules are non-enforcable.

You will still end up with idiots and problems in the bar scene, but at least you will end up with less problems.

I knew we weren't going to have any fair racks from the second we started playing.

Call your shot/pocket was a standard rule but once I called a shot where I hit the one into the two and called it into the middle pocket caroming off of another ball that rule was gone.

I guess you can't call caroms. I called the whole shot before I took it and once it went in the pocket the eyebrows raised and he told me I couldn't do it because it hit his ball also.


Overall I knew it was going to end with someone upset but I still agreed to play with him for the sake of seeing how good he played.



But the last shot where he played a safety without making anything touch a rail was where it almost escalated into a more physical game than anything which is when I just said goodbye.
 
More advice to come.

Some of this advice is about addressing rules and some is about not letting crap in life bother you. Take it for what it's worth.

When I play someone I've never played before, I try to assess the situation/person. If the rules are in question, don't put yourself in a situation where there is something on the line - like money, your health, or pride. You knew this guy was going to be an issue the minute you laid eyes on him. You can always just choose to understand that there is a very good chance that you will never be on the same page with the guy in front of you. Accepting that, you can just go with the flow. I mean if they don't normally play by your rules, then they won't be very good at absorbing the whole ball in hand thing, so I don't usually try to teach guys like this something new. Sometimes people are just hot heads. Not that they are trying to cheat, but they could believe they are actually right and not be trying to see it from your point of view because they have no clue that there are other ways to play. They just get mad too easily. Other times you meet locals who respect how well you play and when you tell them the "real" rules that they have never heard of before, and let them know it's how the pro's play and it's an international standard, you are opening up a whole new world for them, and they like it.

So when I'm playing with someone new, I'll ask if they play in a league, if they are familiar with valley, BCA, "Ball in Hand" rules or play the cue ball from the kitchen after a scratch. At that point you will have a very good idea of whether they play by the rules that you are used to or not. If they play from the kitchen, then you don't need to worry about 90% of the rest of it.

If you do get into a point by point discussion about the rules, try to get it all hashed out before you start. If they say something like, "it's straight eight, everybody knows what that means" then they either don't understand that there are a lot of different ways to play, or they are intentionally setting up a "misunderstanding". At that point you have to say something specific that will most be likely be contrary to what they normally do, just to get their attention and force the conversation, "So if I scratch on the eight, then I don't lose right?"

I have a list of seven things I try to cover before hand, and this is in order of importance (in terms of figuring out if you can get on the same page with them or not). If you can't get on the same page, just do it their way, but don't bet. Or lose a game as quickly as possible and go to a real pool hall...

1. BIH rules or in the kitchen.
2. If they say in the kitchen, ask them if they consider safeties "dirty pool".
3. Table open after break or take what you make?
4. Call shot or call pocket?
5. Eight on the break is a win?
6. Scratch on the eight is not a loss?
7. If you move a stationary ball, put it back or opponent's choice? (also cover that touching a moving ball is always a foul).

I will often ask 5 and 6 earlier just to feel them out.

Even if we are playing their way I will try to talk them into playing my way on two points. I want...

Table open after break, not take what you make, and
Call pocket, not call all details of the shot.

As I was saying above, if you accept that you are playing by rules that you are not used to, you can just chug along and still have a good time. Just go with the flow. But this guy was changing the rules as you go. That's more difficult. You said you had a purpose. You wanted to see how good he was. So you have to take solace in the fact that you achieved your purpose. I would think of the rest as inconsequential. Best you can do is make your exit and let him know that you're not willing to play with someone who likes to make up the rules as he goes.

Fatz
 
Some of this advice is about addressing rules and some is about not letting crap in life bother you. Take it for what it's worth.

When I play someone I've never played before, I try to assess the situation/person. If the rules are in question, don't put yourself in a situation where there is something on the line - like money, your health, or pride. You knew this guy was going to be an issue the minute you laid eyes on him. You can always just choose to understand that there is a very good chance that you will never be on the same page with the guy in front of you. Accepting that, you can just go with the flow. I mean if they don't normally play by your rules, then they won't be very good at absorbing the whole ball in hand thing, so I don't usually try to teach guys like this something new. Sometimes people are just hot heads. Not that they are trying to cheat, but they could believe they are actually right and not be trying to see it from your point of view because they have no clue that there are other ways to play. They just get mad too easily. Other times you meet locals who respect how well you play and when you tell them the "real" rules that they have never heard of before, and let them know it's how the pro's play and it's an international standard, you are opening up a whole new world for them, and they like it.

So when I'm playing with someone new, I'll ask if they play in a league, if they are familiar with valley, BCA, "Ball in Hand" rules or play the cue ball from the kitchen after a scratch. At that point you will have a very good idea of whether they play by the rules that you are used to or not. If they play from the kitchen, then you don't need to worry about 90% of the rest of it.

If you do get into a point by point discussion about the rules, try to get it all hashed out before you start. If they say something like, "it's straight eight, everybody knows what that means" then they either don't understand that there are a lot of different ways to play, or they are intentionally setting up a "misunderstanding". At that point you have to say something specific that will most be likely be contrary to what they normally do, just to get their attention and force the conversation, "So if I scratch on the eight, then I don't lose right?"

I have a list of seven things I try to cover before hand, and this is in order of importance (in terms of figuring out if you can get on the same page with them or not). If you can't get on the same page, just do it their way, but don't bet. Or lose a game as quickly as possible and go to a real pool hall...

1. BIH rules or in the kitchen.
2. If they say in the kitchen, ask them if they consider safeties "dirty pool".
3. Table open after break or take what you make?
4. Call shot or call pocket?
5. Eight on the break is a win?
6. Scratch on the eight is not a loss?
7. If you move a stationary ball, put it back or opponent's choice? (also cover that touching a moving ball is always a foul).

I will often ask 5 and 6 earlier just to feel them out.

Even if we are playing their way I will try to talk them into playing my way on two points. I want...

Table open after break, not take what you make, and
Call pocket, not call all details of the shot.

As I was saying above, if you accept that you are playing by rules that you are not used to, you can just chug along and still have a good time. Just go with the flow. But this guy was changing the rules as you go. That's more difficult. You said you had a purpose. You wanted to see how good he was. So you have to take solace in the fact that you achieved your purpose. I would think of the rest as inconsequential. Best you can do is make your exit and let him know that you're not willing to play with someone who likes to make up the rules as he goes.

Fatz

Sound advice as to how to approach this the next time it (surely) will happen.

Thank you.

From your standpoint and the rules you're familiar with with ball in hand, was I in the wrong for calling a technicality on the last shot?

He hit the CB into his OB but NOTHING touched a rail, therefore it would be ball in hand and essentially give me the game.


Assuming I could put the CB in front of the 8 which was sitting right in front of a pocket and make it. I sure hope I would have been able to make that shot, afterall. lol.
 
I'm not any official on this, but isn't it just standard that you must contact a rail with something? I would say it is "not fair" if he just tapped the cue ball into an object ball, with no other contact.
 
I'm not any official on this, but isn't it just standard that you must contact a rail with something? I would say it is "not fair" if he just tapped the cue ball into an object ball, with no other contact.

That's what I always thought. Before even getting "serious" into pool, I thought that was a basic rule.... Anywhere?

BCA/Valley/APA/..bar room?

I dunno. Maybe it's just all of us and he has the right rules.

Certainly would make for some really interesting safeties if that was the case but I think we'd see more safeties than actual plays being made if that were the case.
 
Downright Gangnam Style

Yes, I saw the Korean Rapper on SNL.

Most people don't have a clue how to play Pocket Billiards.
Does'nt matter the game!

Secondly most people have no idea what the Hell is Gangnam Style.
Glad that it caught on so Koreans will have something to Cheer about.

So Mr. Adams please stay away from the Bars and the thousands of
crazy rules and go find a Billiard Club that has some members who know
their way around the Nine or Ten Foot Table.

Noel
 
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Yes, I saw the Korean Rapper on SNL.

Most people don't have a clue how to play Pocket Billiards.

Me included when it comes to running rack after rack :cool:

But I do know what's a good safety vs ball in hand...


Gangnam style either way.
 
From your standpoint and the rules you're familiar with with ball in hand, was I in the wrong for calling a technicality on the last shot?

He hit the CB into his OB but NOTHING touched a rail, therefore it would be ball in hand...

With BIH rules in effect, and no balls having touched a rail or going into a pocket, it was indeed a foul. That's not a "technicality". That's a foul, absolutely.

Question is what rules was HE playing by? There are two possibilities...

1. This guy was an asshole who pretends not to know the rules and changes them on the fly to his advantage. This is why you have to get this stuff hashed out before something is at stake. Or don't play for money and don't let it bother your pride, hence there is nothing at stake. Even when I am in this situation I will make a comment along the lines, "You just really don't know anything about pool do you?" Not that I let myself get upset about it, but I am not going to let a guy like this totally off the hook either. The guy probably has seen countless such disputes in his bar. He may see it as a tool to be used, not as a situation to be avoided.

2. This guy is a "bar player" and he and the other local bar players are mixing "bar rules" and "real rules" because they simply don't know the right way to play. They are perfectly fun people to hang out with, they're just not playing by the same rules you are. In this situation, guys can get upset because THEY think YOU are the cheater. Again, try to hash it out before hand. If you cover the 7 things I listed, you are going to get a really good idea if they know what they are doing or not. If they don't, then you don't have to go any further with discussing it. Just go with the flow and have fun. Just don't play for money. I have actually played with bar players who say that playing safeties is allowed, but didn't have a clue about the contacting a rail part. They actually just thought that was OK. But most of the time, bar players will say playing safeties is "dirty pool", but they sure like to play "two way shots" on you though. That's OK, like I said, just go with the flow, and return the favor when you need to. In this situation I will address rules one at time, as they come up. But I will be clear and complete about that one rule because it's for future reference too.

Fatz
 
With BIH rules in effect, and no balls having touched a rail or going into a pocket, it was indeed a foul. That's not a "technicality". That's a foul, absolutely.

Question is what rules was HE playing by? There are two possibilities...

1. This guy was an asshole who pretends not to know the rules and changes them on the fly to his advantage. This is why you have to get this stuff hashed out before something is at stake. Or don't play for money and don't let it bother your pride, hence there is nothing at stake. Even when I am in this situation I will make a comment along the lines, "You just really don't know anything about pool do you?" Not that I let myself get upset about it, but I am not going to let a guy like this totally off the hook either. The guy probably has seen countless such disputes in his bar. He may see it as a tool to be used, not as a situation to be avoided.

2. This guy is a "bar player" and he and the other local bar players are mixing "bar rules" and "real rules" because they simply don't know the right way to play. They are perfectly fun people to hang out with, they're just not playing by the same rules you are. In this situation, guys can get upset because THEY think YOU are the cheater. Again, try to hash it out before hand. If you cover the 7 things I listed, you are going to get a really good idea if they know what they are doing or not. If they don't, then you don't have to go any further with discussing it. Just go with the flow and have fun. Just don't play for money. I have actually played with bar players who say that playing safeties is allowed, but didn't have a clue about the contacting a rail part. They actually just thought that was OK. But most of the time, bar players will say playing safeties is "dirty pool", but they sure like to play "two way shots" on you though. That's OK, like I said, just go with the flow, and return the favor when you need to. In this situation I will address rules one at time, as they come up. But I will be clear and complete about that one rule because it's for future reference too.

Fatz



I guess it's just hard for me.

I want the sport to succeed and he kept saying "I don't play that sh!t I just play pool"

How can you play a sport when you don't have any real general rules to abide by?


Am I going to play basketball with you and then just carry the ball across the court and never dribble then say "where I play we don't believe in double dribbling"?

There needs to be a more general guideline of rules. I wish people would just realize that... I feel like the negative stigma of the game and "hustlers" would go away at least slightly if people like this couldn't get away with things like this.



Oh well. After the last foul was brought up and it got a little heated he said, "Well what you wanna play for? How much?"

Yeah... Surely going to bet money in the ever changing game rule set.



I'll just stick to playing with people that play leagues or don't give me a bad vibe.
 
The safetey you described would have been ball-in-hand for you.

He may have been playing a safety by intentionaly giving you ball-in-hand.

I get the idea he was just messing with you to try and see how much he could get away with.Were you playing for dough?
 
I want the sport to succeed and he kept saying "I don't play that sh!t I just play pool"

How can you play a sport when you don't have any real general rules to abide by?

Am I going to play basketball with you and then just carry the ball across the court and never dribble...

"I don't play that sh!t I just play BASKETBALL"

Oh well. After the last foul was brought up and it got a little heated he said, "Well what you wanna play for? How much?"

OK, so the guy WAS an asshole! And an idiot too. Like you say why play for money against someone who has already proven that you can't trust him. And he insults your intelligence by not acknowledging that you can see how stupid he is.

Fatz
 
So as we go along the rules keep changing and changing

I've had guys try this when they realize I play better than they initially thought. They keep trying to change the rules to get their win. I tell them we can play that way next game. Around here you dont have to hit a rail playing bar rules, it sure leads to some killer safties :wink: I try to avoid playing anyone that doesnt know bca or similar type rules.
 
The safetey you described would have been ball-in-hand for you.

He may have been playing a safety by intentionaly giving you ball-in-hand.

I get the idea he was just messing with you to try and see how much he could get away with.Were you playing for dough?

I wasn't going to play for money with his rules.... I like money, I'd rather keep it. If we could have agreed to a standard set of rules I wouldn't have minded playing for a little.

The safety he tried to play would have been excellent if it hit a rail. But giving me ball in hand would have ensured a win for me as I was on the 8 and it was sitting clear in front of a pocket. Like, less than an inch away from falling in. Nothing else in the way. Where he tried to place it was right behind a ball in front of the 8.

rail---------> pocket = P

-------------_P_
(cb)(10) (8) |



But no rail was touched. So it was a guranteed win if he fouled.
 
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