Are they really comparable in hardness? Does the Samsara have the loud "snap" when hit like phenolic?
Samsara vs Phenolic
- Thread starter BarTableMan
- Start date
Short answer is no they are different hardness ratings. They are also different materials so they sound different. The samsara does not have the snap but it allows for much better control because it is made of leather. The phenolic gives less to the cueball and thus generates slightly more speed but I have done some testing on this and the speed increase was negligible for me personally.
The main difference for me was the control I got with the samsara over the phenolic. I put a samsara on my bk3 and have not looked back. To be honest it could be used to play a whole rack with the samsara as long as your stroke is good.
So the only real difference I have seen is the sound.
Not even close... Samsara runs about 75% energy transfer vs 90% with a good phenolic like comes on a Bk2... You swing 30mph you get 27mph out of the BK2 w/phenolic you swing 30 with the Samsara on your BK2 you get about 22.5... Slower cueball will always be easier to control so is it the leather or the speed that has people cutting off phenolics to lose speed and energy?
You could have taken 10% off your swing with the BK2 with phenolic and still been breaking harder with it than the Samsara and likely had as much control taking 15% off your swing might have even been better control using the phenolic or maybe the same as then the cueball speeds would have been very closeish....
You could have taken 10% off your swing with the BK2 with phenolic and still been breaking harder with it than the Samsara and likely had as much control taking 15% off your swing might have even been better control using the phenolic or maybe the same as then the cueball speeds would have been very closeish....
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The hardness ratings may be true but I do not believe that at the same speed a phenolic has the same control as a leather tip. I'm also not aware of any experiments to back up your claim but I would be glad to reverse my opinion on the matter if they exist.
If hardness is the only thing that is important why not just make a steel tip? It should have optimal speed transfer and if it you shape it to the perfect shape it will never lose its shape. Hell you could even poke lots of little tiny holes in it so that it would hold chalk but I would bet my life that it would not control the cueball as well.
I know the above is crazy and people will say it would hurt the balls but that isn't the point of the example. The point is that past a certain hardness I believe you have little to no control on the cueball no matter the speed and, like many things in life, you have to find the balance between hardness and control.
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I tried both for a few months and could never learn to break properly with them.
Was always very insecure during breaking, a feeling I hate during pool.
So I installed Kamui Black Hard on my break cue and everything is back to normal.
Since I like that same tip on my player its even nicer......at least it works for me. I hate those super hard leather or phenolic tips.
Was always very insecure during breaking, a feeling I hate during pool.
So I installed Kamui Black Hard on my break cue and everything is back to normal.
Since I like that same tip on my player its even nicer......at least it works for me. I hate those super hard leather or phenolic tips.
Hardness means nothing.. COR is everything. Our Hard Playing tip transfers as much enery a Samsara break tip does and it's wayyyyy softer on hardness... Our break tip that I won't release is 7% faster on energy transfer than the samsara at the same hardness... Sorry you took offense but swapping a predator tip for the samsara is only productive if you want to swing from the heels and not change your approach....
samsara is the perfect break tip, its hard enough to jump with, but soft enough to feel control during the break without the glass shatteing sound you get with phenolic tips. I break hard, my break is loud and samsara tip gives me the confidence to not miscue when I hit off line. I would compare it to nothing as there is nothing out there like it. I would compare it to the next hardest leather tip you can find, break with it for a year while its turned down close to the ferrule.
No offense was taken- I just do not agree with your assessment. I have played with both and have recorded results with both using the handy little break speed app. I usually break around 26-27mph with both tips but I found it much, much easier to control the cueball with the samsara.
and wich one is the best to jump with ?
I break with a Samarsa (on OB Break cue) and play with an Ultraskin Soft.
Sometimes, just for grins, I play out a rack with my break cue (just to feel what it's like to play with a hard tip). I can pretty much do everything with the Samarsa that I can with the soft tip, although I don't use "extreme" english with either tip.
I tried a friend's phenolic tip breaker once. I didn't feel like I had any control especially on a 9-ball cut break.
Maybe my experience is a moot point since I don't see any advantage to breaking beyond 22mph.
Slightly off topic but how do you guys compare the Samsara with White Diamond? I'm debating on which of the two to be my next break tip for my BK3. Currently using the stock phenolic tip my stick came with. Any pros and cons between the two? Any advice is appreciated!
Is that really true? ...that the cue-ball comes off the cue at a fraction of the swing (cue-stick) speed?
I was always under the impression that the cue-ball's initial speed was greater than the cue-stick's speed at impact.
White diamond is fiber based while samsara is leather. The white diamond is harder and breaks a wee bit faster but I have found it to have less control than the leather tip of a samsara. It really depends on what you are looking for- if you play mostly 9ball and you have a controlled cut break I would probably go with the samsara but if you play mostly 8ball and want some more speed a case could be made for the white diamond. As a side note the white diamond holds chalk much better than phenolic and about the same as the samsara.
Personally I like the samsara as it allows for better control but it's a matter of preference. If you break hard enough to not need the extra speed I would go with the samsara all the way. As for jumping both do the job very well.
I don't agree with this as I already stated. The difference he quoted is huuuuge and I have not seen anywhere near that. On paper phenolic breaks faster because of its COR rating but in practice I have not seen much difference.
:smile:
A tip made out of bakelite.
http://plasticsmakeitpossible.com/2012/08/bakelite-the-plastic-that-made-history/
:thumbup:
To be clear, I am not calling into question the claimed difference between the rebound speeds of phenolic and leather tips.
What I am calling into question is the claim that a cueball rebounds at a slower speed than the cue-stick's impact velocity. I think this is wrong for all center ball hits where the cue-stick weighs more than a cue-ball.
Has anyone ever had part of the tip fly off on a Samsara tip? I hadn't had the tip too long, when one day while breaking, a piece of the tip went flying, Spent a lot of money on that tip, and was able to salvage what was left, but will never buy another one.
I think it's physically impossible for a billiard ball to travel faster than the cue stick that hits it.
Momentum is just the transfer of stored energy. When the ball and cue tip are equal hardness the transfer is close to 100%. This is not the case for something like a golf ball where the ball is softer than the clubhead. In this case the ball compresses. The additional time it takes for the ball to compress allows more energy to be transfered and stored in the golf ball.
But a billiard ball is too hard to experience any meaningful compression. I guess if you used a hard-steel tip you might get some minor compression that results in a 100.001% transfer of energy. But you'd go through cue balls pretty quickly. :grin:
The weight of the cue stick should be immaterial. Perhaps a heavier cue stick will achieve energy transfer closer to 100% than a lightweight cue stick will. But it's not going to exceed 100%.