Sanctioning Our League

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Nemiroff0807

Registered
A lot of you say that you are "staying with BCA." The old BCA as we know it is now called American Cuesports (ACS). We have all worked for years with John Lewis and Betty Harris. They are standing by "old BCA" practices for leagues. So, if you don't want things to "change," sanction your leagues with ACS.
 
Hey……… john and betty were employed by the BCA they left(fired and resigned) to start another league system. The same national league systems that was changed over to Mark Griffin, still exists. This system is improving daily where as the old BCA was stagnate.

Take the paper bag off your head.
 
sharandrew said:
Hey……… john and betty were employed by the BCA they left(fired and resigned) to start another league system. The same national league systems that was changed over to Mark Griffin, still exists. This system is improving daily where as the old BCA was stagnate.

How is it improving daily? In our town, quite a few people have spoken to Mark Griffin on the phone. He has been rude and condescending and doesn't really seem to know what he is talking about. He doesn't seem to want to deal with anything or take a stance. He even told me that playing on Diamond Tables will make women play 10% faster. How can that happen? It's ridiculous if you ask me.

Take the paper bag off your head.
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I would prefer to keep the bag on to avoid looking at you.
 
Nemiroff0807 said:
I would prefer to keep the bag on to avoid looking at you.
Click to expand...

Please...for all of our sakes - keep the bag on. Anyone who advocates for theives - and that is what employees who steal from a company are called - ought to be forced to spend quality time with the former president of Enron. We could use someone helping him out with his license plates and who better than a morally bankrupt idiot?
Why don't you go sing your song to John Lewis? Maybe he cram some more of the good stuff up your backside. The majority of the pool playing public understands that you don't pilfer pens, paper - and CUSTOMERS from your job and then turn around and open shop claiming that you are the one! Mark Griffin bought a business - that's capitalism - if you don't like it - we could take a vote on the forum of where we think it would be best for you to move - otherwise, go share your sense of morality with someone else, somewhere else.
 
Look Buddy, do your homework. Apparently you are here to start trouble and that's just not going to happen.
If you want answers go back to some of the OLD threads and read before you insert your foot.
 
I don’t know you Nemiroff... but I could say to you that there are two advantages for you to keep the bag on your head. One is you don’t have to look at the rest of world and the other is we don’t have to look at you. This could keep you a in your own darkness. Instead I would like to let some light in. The parable of the cave
Suppose you and others are deep in a cave looking at the back cave wall so that you cannot turn your head around to look behind. Behind you is a fire. So the only thing the people see and know are the shadows and flickers on the cave wall. They assume, therefore, that the shadows and flickers are reality.
Then, one day, you happen to leave the confines of the cave wall. You go out of the cave and into the sunlight. You see colors and three dimensional images for the first time, and decides that you must go down back into the cave and tell all the other people that what they have taken to be reality is mistaken and what the world outside the cave is really like.
The point of this is people are like prisoners; they are familiarize to believing to be true what their world tell them to be true. Getting to the truth and believing your senses is a hard habit to break. Nemiroff come out of the cave!!! Task #1:the first set of questions on your trek …why change? If it ain’t broke what’s to fix? Who wants to fix what is not broke? And who’s to gain by telling everyone it needs fixing? so what did you find out?
 
The other posters are being way too kind wasting their time - if you aren't even moral enough to know that stealing is wrong - you should really give them some sort of reassurance that you aren't just wasting their efforts.
 
I am sorry gang…. But… I received a letter from ACS it is a jewel. A few comments in it really bothered me. I must make a comment about it. Since this thread is going…

“While early commitments were made from financial donors, the ACS has “not requested” nor received loans nor private bequests from any state league association or private individual.”
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I was at the Vegas meeting where Cecil Messer solicited the audience for financial support. How can they make that statement in a mass email communication like that. ACS must think that there are enough dim people out there who will believe a statement like that. How is it that even today features like this continue by them?


“The ACS is solvent and “making a profit” thanks to the summer league sanction fees”
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Whether semantics or bad choice of words the statements that they are “making a profit” is contrary to their ideology. ACS being a non-profit entity was their biggest selling point for convincing players that the BCA was a bad way of doing business. So what is any different now that they are claiming a profit. What is the ACS money going for?. It makes me wonder more now that I considered dual sanctioning. The scrutiny that ACS people were demanding as needed with Mark Griffin’s BCA now needs to be turned on them. The ACS now need to be scrutinized because of their ideological hypocrisy.
 
Here's the thing - If the ACS wants to start a league and claim that it is the "true" BCA - fine, go do it. What doesn't sit well with me is the whole approach that in doing so - it is okay to tear apart anything else to get the desired results. The way they are going about trying to accomplish what they want to accomplish is just not right. I had the priviledge of seeing an email that John Lewis sent to one of the state assn presidents about their assn taking a vote. In it he told this pres that if the smaller league groups didn't vote the way that they wanted them to that they should walk out on the existing assn forcing them to either do what the ACS camp wanted or continue on with a significant decrease in numbers. Funny, that is exactly what they tried to pull in the NW.
Continually trying to discredit the competition only makes the ACS look bad. I don't see the BCA camp doing the same thing. On the contrary, for Mark Griffin to have spent money for this league system only to be fleeced by John Lewis and crew but not retalliate back shows a lot of class IMO.
I believe that more pool is better for the sport - just not this way. The ACS and people representing it nationally and in my area continue to act like small children not getting their way in the sand box. It is sad and pathetic that grown adults would have so little consideration for the many enthusiasts out there that they claim to represent.
 
sharandrew

You're obviously in favor of independent leagues being under a national owner-operator instead of being conducted by a board of directors representing the membership. That is clear. Before the ACS began operations on June 1, they solicited start-up funds (the meeting in Vegas to which you refer was in the first half of May) and actually received commitments from some private individuals and state associations. With the great support in summer league sanction fees, the ACS was fortunate not to have to accept these offers. If you want to read some negativity into the ACS statement, I would expect you to. That appears to be the type of guy you are. As for myself, I find it to be a very positive statement that states the ACS is off to a good start. That may upset some of you naysayers out there, but I'm happy the new organization is doing well.

The next point you make with the words "ideological hypocrisy" should probably be read "go back to school so you can understand your facts better." Non-profits like the ACS are legal entities so that the passion that fuels the engine can be the first priority. Profit is the second priority. A non-profit cannot remain in business if it does not generate a profit. With a for-profit business, the profit is first priority - the passion is the second priority [and please don't let an owner brainwash you otherwise!]. The difference between ACS (a legal non-profit association) and BCA Pool Leagues (a legal "for-profit" business) is every penny of the ACS profit generated at the end of each year will be used by the elected board of directors representing the membership (elections will take place in May, 2005) to generate more benefits for the membership; the BCA Pool Leagues profit will be used according to the whims of an owner who may or may not tell you that he will ever touch a dime of the profits - depending on what mood he's in. Andrew, your statements inferred that a non-profit should not make a profit. In ACS, the peers of the membership determine how to use the profit for the good of the membership. None of the elected directors enriches themselves. By-laws ensure this process. You cannot have the same assurances with an owner (BCA Pool Leagues) - regardles of what the owner may state! "Ideological hypocrisy"? I think that statement showed naivete on your part - not hypocrisy on the ACS's part.

You support your state association. I believe it is a democratic structure governed by a board of directors elected by the membership. Hopefully, there is a balance in the state assn. bank account at the end of each year. If it's a healthy balance, hopefully, the elected directors will decide how to best use the "profit" to better benefit the overall membership. I don't think the directors are all going to reach in and take shares for their own pockets. The by-laws probably doesn't allow that. Personally, I like such a structure. As a member, I feel some empowerment in how the organization will be directed. I help to elect the officers, and I have been an officer myself. You probably like that structure too, because I know you support it. So...why would you support such a state structure, and then turn around and espouse "national owner is great, national owner is the way to go, etc. etc. - all hail the national owner?" Maybe you should go to your state association and ask them to sell it to a buyer (and don't tell the membership). ..........I think you're the one practicing "ideological hypocrisy!"

APA is a for-profit; TAP is a for-profit; BCA Pool Leagues is a for-profit.....VNEA is a non-profit. Seems a little one-sided to me. The players getting to control their own affairs is getting a bit short-changed in this scenario of amateur league systems. I'm glad the ACS is active in helping to equalize that balance. Someone standing up for the ACS on this thread seems to anger you ACS naysayers, but fortunately there are many leagues, state associations and players out there who value the ACS and the principles that allow them to have empowerment to control the direction of THEIR national organization. The members...not the owner...fully controls the ship. Personally, I like that.

As a new poster, I'm curious why so many of you choose to criticize and not post your real names. My name is Denise Nemiroff, and I'm a former league player under the old Billiard Congress of America league system (I consider BCA Pool Leagues to be a totally different entity) who is very disappointed at the trade association BCA board (not my peers) for keeping their actions to sell my national league system a secret and not informing the membership it affected until after they sold the league system. It's nice to see you and other posters on this thread seem to be thrilled with that and are working so hard to see that the trade assn. BCA's actions become successful. Wow! I wouldn't want to be with you guys on a bus with the front hanging precipitously over a cliff. One of you guys would get the bright idea to move to the front, and the rest might follow!

Denise Nemiroff
 
What you say about non-profits is all well and good - but keep in mind that no "players" have banded together to form anything. The ACS was formed well in advance of any BCA player knowing anything about a sale. Rather than being able to hear both sales pitches from both of the "new" organizations - many are being ambushed and treated like sheep, esspecially at the state level under the state associations. The Western BCA (our state assn) is still a non-profit. When the pro-acs camp tried to ambush our players and convince everyone that a for-profit company is an evil thing - it just didn't fly. Our area is still very much run by its players and should there come a day when that is no longer the case we may decide (as a player group) that we don't want to continue our association with the BCA. Until that happens, the BCA is responsible for putting on a tournament (or two) in Las Vegas that many of us would like to continue going to. My contention is that these organizations (the state and national) are responsible for putting on regional and national tournaments - the BCA rules are already set and accepted for what they are - so what else is the function of these organizations but to create more competition amongst all levels of players? I can't imagine "bar" pool as an olympic sport - so what else are these organizations doing? We could debate for days the best way to promote and further a sport - but that isn't what we're talking about.

I would like to bring up one of the key issues for players when they found out that there would be both a BCA and an ACS. Dual-sanctioning. You know what John Lewis said - "Over his dead body would the ACS dual sanction with the BCA". What do you think would be in the best interest of the thousands of working players out there who are confused by all the political BS? Yes, dual sanctioning would have been the most reasonable option - and Mark Griffin was ok with that - but the ACS - no way. Shortly after the Pac NW had its state meeting the ACS changed its tune on dual-sanctioning - can't imagine why (since they weren't going to be able to FORCE everyone into the ACS)! Aside from what John Lewis may or may not believe - he is not the former BCA and therefore IMO does not have the right to claim that his new organization is the old BCA. I agree that the BCA trade association made horrible mistakes with their employees as well as with the sale of that league system. But that is different than the tactics of the ACS people. I got a call from the BCA office just recently about how a team from our area finished at the National tournament this year in Las Vegas. The National office wanted the names of the people on the team. She had called the former league operator (now ACS) and the woman wouldn't give her any information. Is it just me? It seems so petty and pathetic?
If you couldn't tell - I personally am just sick and tired of the ACS trying to tear apart whoever they consider a threat. This sandbox mentality hinders the sport and until enthusiasts stop condoning those kinds of actions, our sport will suffer.
BTW - sharandrew is a respected league op in the Portland, OR area (Andrew and Sharon) and they have yet to hide their identity smart-ass. As for me - I just don't have very much respect for your sassy attitudes and degrading personal attacks. You get what you give.
 
Denise.....It is funny that I have only posted my screen name but you refer to me as Andrew. I have not shared my real name but nor is it really hidden from certian people. What I have found out is that there has been a collective group of ACS supporters (conspirers if you will) desperately trying to find out who I am. This group has been part of some imprudent remarks. So anyone who post’s my name in the forum is likely one of those who have spent more time trying to find out who I am then finding out what’s really going on.

You did not get it!! you did not see it!! You did not hear it!! ideological hypocrisy. I am sorry that “someone” has rolled a boulder in front of your cave so that you can not see the light!! that some one maybe you? the “Parable of the cave”, which I had read in philosophy class back in my college days, its good reading. Until you can accept what the truth is.... you will be at a complete disadvantage.

Denise if you are not one of those conspirers then you are probably a well meaning person trying to understand. I hope that you realize that most people have gone beyond the space of notions that you are at right now. I was looking at the ACS the same way you are, once even twice, but I learned, I discovered more, much more. I would just like to genuinely stimulate your thinking.

……Know Nada….. You really know Lota!!! well said!!! Do I know you?? :p
 
A tip to the unknown comic with the bag on her head. You enter a chat forum that you have never posted on before. You instruct people to sanction ACS. You are highly misinformed and apparently uneducated because anyone with any lick of sense would know better than to go onto a forum and make demands such as yours. Then you start throwing stones with the name game. OK Denise, we know who you are and all know who I am. I always post with my name and state.
Do yourself a favor, if you really want to know what is going on, go back to the previous threads and READ THEM. We have already discussed these issues and are not interested in explaining things to you.
If your a lucky girl, maybe Barbie and Ken (John and Betty) will have a tea party with you. People in make believe world such as yours need to stay there.
You must be a very demanding person and I feel sorry your mate (if you have one) because one can tell who wears the pants in your family.

John Simmons
 
Nemiroff0807 said:
sharandrew

You're obviously in favor of independent leagues being under a national owner-operator instead of being conducted by a board of directors representing the membership. That is clear. Before the ACS began operations on June 1, they solicited start-up funds (the meeting in Vegas to which you refer was in the first half of May) and actually received commitments from some private individuals and state associations. With the great support in summer league sanction fees, the ACS was fortunate not to have to accept these offers. If you want to read some negativity into the ACS statement, I would expect you to. That appears to be the type of guy you are. As for myself, I find it to be a very positive statement that states the ACS is off to a good start. That may upset some of you naysayers out there, but I'm happy the new organization is doing well.

The next point you make with the words "ideological hypocrisy" should probably be read "go back to school so you can understand your facts better." Non-profits like the ACS are legal entities so that the passion that fuels the engine can be the first priority. Profit is the second priority. A non-profit cannot remain in business if it does not generate a profit. With a for-profit business, the profit is first priority - the passion is the second priority [and please don't let an owner brainwash you otherwise!]. The difference between ACS (a legal non-profit association) and BCA Pool Leagues (a legal "for-profit" business) is every penny of the ACS profit generated at the end of each year will be used by the elected board of directors representing the membership (elections will take place in May, 2005) to generate more benefits for the membership; the BCA Pool Leagues profit will be used according to the whims of an owner who may or may not tell you that he will ever touch a dime of the profits - depending on what mood he's in. Andrew, your statements inferred that a non-profit should not make a profit. In ACS, the peers of the membership determine how to use the profit for the good of the membership. None of the elected directors enriches themselves. By-laws ensure this process. You cannot have the same assurances with an owner (BCA Pool Leagues) - regardles of what the owner may state! "Ideological hypocrisy"? I think that statement showed naivete on your part - not hypocrisy on the ACS's part.

You support your state association. I believe it is a democratic structure governed by a board of directors elected by the membership. Hopefully, there is a balance in the state assn. bank account at the end of each year. If it's a healthy balance, hopefully, the elected directors will decide how to best use the "profit" to better benefit the overall membership. I don't think the directors are all going to reach in and take shares for their own pockets. The by-laws probably doesn't allow that. Personally, I like such a structure. As a member, I feel some empowerment in how the organization will be directed. I help to elect the officers, and I have been an officer myself. You probably like that structure too, because I know you support it. So...why would you support such a state structure, and then turn around and espouse "national owner is great, national owner is the way to go, etc. etc. - all hail the national owner?" Maybe you should go to your state association and ask them to sell it to a buyer (and don't tell the membership). ..........I think you're the one practicing "ideological hypocrisy!"

APA is a for-profit; TAP is a for-profit; BCA Pool Leagues is a for-profit.....VNEA is a non-profit. Seems a little one-sided to me. The players getting to control their own affairs is getting a bit short-changed in this scenario of amateur league systems. I'm glad the ACS is active in helping to equalize that balance. Someone standing up for the ACS on this thread seems to anger you ACS naysayers, but fortunately there are many leagues, state associations and players out there who value the ACS and the principles that allow them to have empowerment to control the direction of THEIR national organization. The members...not the owner...fully controls the ship. Personally, I like that.

As a new poster, I'm curious why so many of you choose to criticize and not post your real names. My name is Denise Nemiroff, and I'm a former league player under the old Billiard Congress of America league system (I consider BCA Pool Leagues to be a totally different entity) who is very disappointed at the trade association BCA board (not my peers) for keeping their actions to sell my national league system a secret and not informing the membership it affected until after they sold the league system. It's nice to see you and other posters on this thread seem to be thrilled with that and are working so hard to see that the trade assn. BCA's actions become successful. Wow! I wouldn't want to be with you guys on a bus with the front hanging precipitously over a cliff. One of you guys would get the bright idea to move to the front, and the rest might follow!

Denise Nemiroff
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Don't worry Denise your argueing with those who just don't get it! The rest of us that do are beyond this. They don't think that the Board of Directors of the BCA has done anything wrong. They don't think that persuing US Olympic Commitee recongnition of billiards will have any positive effect on the sport (It's not about management style, only a non-profit organization can be recognized accourding to IOC and USOC rules). They blame John Lewis for anything they perceive as being wrong with the old BCA League System or the new ACS without researching the facts.

Hope to see you in Reno at the ACS 9 Ball Championships.

Craig
 
Craig Arnold said:
Don't worry Denise your argueing with those who just don't get it! The rest of us that do are beyond this. They don't think that the Board of Directors of the BCA has done anything wrong. They don't think that persuing US Olympic Commitee recongnition of billiards will have any positive effect on the sport (It's not about management style, only a non-profit organization can be recognized accourding to IOC and USOC rules). They blame John Lewis for anything they perceive as being wrong with the old BCA League System or the new ACS without researching the facts.

Hope to see you in Reno at the ACS 9 Ball Championships.

Craig
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Hey Craig -

Since I just don't "get it" and you are so enlightened - can you please help me understand how the NBA stars play in the Olympics? Last time I checked they were still charging an arm and a leg at the Staples center to see Shaq and Kobe. This is America - money talks and BS walks - looks like you better strap on those boots - they're made for walkin'!
 
And BTW Craig - while you have that brain in operational mode - just exactly what does league pool on a bar table have to do with the olympics? We gonna send the bud light girls to cheer on our billiard athletes when the sport debuts? I have a hard time believing that a "league" organization is going to be responsible for getting pool into the olympics - that is just John Lewis' excuse to tug at the emotions of enthusiasts (since we blame everything on poor JL). What banner could the ACS come up with to if they weren't able to wave the olympic one?
And why is it Mark Griffins fault that the "trade assn bca" kept the sale private? Wasn't that the BCA's right? There are companies buying and selling every day without notifying their employees. A guy not having his job tomorrow is slightly higher on the scale of general importance than whether or not your weekly league dues is going to a for profit company that is straight forward or a non-profit company that you have no real idea on the financial health of the organization. Either way - you don't know how much Mark Griffin makes, don't know how much John Lewis makes, and you have spent your five bucks just the same.
 
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