Shane Van Boening's "Flick" Stroke

[bigskyblue]

I'd like input from some of you instructors.

Question, how does Shane deliver such a subtle hit, using such a long stroke?
He's gripping his cue almost at the butt end. Is it a wrist flick? Here's (11) min.
of Shane's stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOQDEIfVvOE

 

[Scott Lee]

No...it has nothing to do with "wrist flick". It's all about SVB using the weight of the cue and timing to create the speed of the shot...instead of a tight grip and trying to "punch" the shot. Notice how smooth the transition from the end of the backswing to the foreward stroke is.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[FranCrimi]

I'd like input from some of you instructors.

Question, how does Shane deliver such a subtle hit, using such a long stroke?
He's gripping his cue almost at the butt end. Is it a wrist flick? Here's (11) min.
of Shane's stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOQDEIfVvOE

I'm not sure what you mean by "subtle hit." Can you describe what you mean by that?

 

[bigskyblue]

No...it has nothing to do with "wrist flick". It's all about SVB using the weight of the cue and timing to create the speed of the shot...instead of a tight grip and trying to "punch" the shot. Notice how smooth the transition from the end of the backswing to the foreward stroke is.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Coach Lee, I'm intrigued by your analysis of SVB's stroke process.

Could you elaborate on your statement "using the weight of the cue and timing to create the speed of the shot".

Also, is this technique accomplished by gripping the cue more in the palm of the hand or does the feel come from the fingers and finger pads?

There's a new young gun out here on the west coast who has been mowing down all the pros. He's got a similar subtle stroke motion like SVB. His name is Ruben Bautista.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkQYzxAoyo

 

[bigskyblue]

I'm not sure what you mean by "subtle hit." Can you describe what you mean by that?

Shane has a long bridge length and he draws back all the way to the ferrule on his last back swing. Yet he still delivers soft and controlled hit. Subtle is the term that comes to mind, when I think of that big wind up and that soft smooth delivery.

 

[Scott Lee]

bigskyblue...There are only two ways to deliver the cuestick...a piston stroke and a pendulum stroke. One involves elbow drop and one doesn't. Using a pendulum stroke allows the subconscious brain to "program" the biceps to deliver the cue along a natural range of motion, and almost any rate of acceleration, without "grabbing" tightly on the butt end of the cue. When the brain understands that the swing is a nonrandom linear range of motion, that is exceptionally repeatable and accurate, it can also train the hand not to grip the cue tightly...even when swinging quickly like on a break stroke. Excessive followthrough is unnecessary and more liable to produce inconsistent results. Letting the cue "do the work", instead of muscling the cue, creates what's called "kinetic energy" (think of a battering ram concept). The cue weighs 3x as much as the CB, therefore it can be swung naturally, operating only off of the elbow, with no drop, and generate huge amounts of energy without having to clamp down on the cuestick. Hope you understand what I'm talking about. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Coach Lee, I'm intrigued by your analysis of SVB's stroke process.

Could you elaborate on your statement "using the weight of the cue and timing to create the speed of the shot".

Also, is this technique accomplished by gripping the cue more in the palm of the hand or does the feel come from the fingers and finger pads?

There's a new young gun out here on the west coast who has been mowing down all the pros. He's got a similar subtle stroke motion like SVB. His name is Ruben Bautista.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkQYzxAoyo

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

You seem to be implying that Shane has a pendulum stroke. If that is so, disagree with that notion.

bigskyblue...There are only two ways to deliver the cuestick...a piston stroke and a pendulum stroke. One involves elbow drop and one doesn't. Using a pendulum stroke allows the subconscious brain to "program" the biceps to deliver the cue along a natural range of motion, and almost any rate of acceleration, without "grabbing" tightly on the butt end of the cue. When the brain understands that the swing is a nonrandom linear range of motion, that is exceptionally repeatable and accurate, it can also train the hand not to grip the cue tightly...even when swinging quickly like on a break stroke. Excessive followthrough is unnecessary and more liable to produce inconsistent results. Letting the cue "do the work", instead of muscling the cue, creates what's called "kinetic energy" (think of a battering ram concept). The cue weighs 3x as much as the CB, therefore it can be swung naturally, operating only off of the elbow, with no drop, and generate huge amounts of energy without having to clamp down on the cuestick. Hope you understand what I'm talking about. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[FranCrimi]

Shane has a long bridge length and he draws back all the way to the ferrule on his last back swing. Yet he still delivers soft and controlled hit. Subtle is the term that comes to mind, when I think of that big wind up and that soft smooth delivery.

He does sometimes flick his wrist when he needs the extra speed. Take a look at the 57 second mark. He keeps it smooth all the way through, and then releases his wrist just before impact to get a little extra speed. He doesn't do it on every shot but just when he needs a little extra.

You can really see it when he breaks.

 

[ENGLISH!]

He does sometimes flick his wrist when he needs the extra speed. Take a look at the 57 second mark. He keeps it smooth all the way through, and then releases his wrist just before impact to get a little extra speed. He doesn't do it on every shot but just when he needs a little extra.

You can really see it when he breaks.

Fran,

If I am not mistaken, I think I remember you saying that you recommend not using the wrist so much but instead to focus on the arm movement. I personally predominantly use my wrist & fingers with a not too long of an arm motion. So I simply add more arm motion when I want or need more power. I've found that I can usually get the power I need with just the wrist/fingers & a short arm stroke.

But enough about me, I was wondering what you think about Shane's wrist position in that :57 shot. To me it is very much like, if not exactly, the wrist position & movement that CJ has talked about so extensively here.

I'd appreciate your insight about that & also my main method.

Thanks in Advance,
Rick

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran,

If I am not mistaken, I think I remember you saying that you recommend not using the wrist so much but instead to focus on the arm movement. I personally predominantly use my wrist & fingers with a not too long of an arm motion. So I simply add more arm motion when I want or need more power. I've found that I can usually get the power I need with just the wrist/fingers & a short arm stroke.

But enough about me, I was wondering what you think about Shane's wrist position in that :57 shot. To me it is very much like, if not exactly, the wrist position & movement that CJ has talked about so extensively here.

I'd appreciate your insight about that & also my main method.

Thanks in Advance,
Rick

Right. I'm not really a fan of a lot of wrist movement, except for breaking and extreme power shots. There are also other exceptions, such as when the cb and ob are very close to each other and you need to generate power. But those are minimal compared to the majority of shots where I feel wrist movement isn't necessary.

I'm not sure about Shane's wrist position. I know it's similar to what CJ has suggested. I don't know enough about it to render an opinion.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Right. I'm not really a fan of a lot of wrist movement, except for breaking and extreme power shots. There are also other exceptions, such as when the cb and ob are very close to each other and you need to generate power. But those are minimal compared to the majority of shots where I feel wrist movement isn't necessary.

I'm not sure about Shane's wrist position. I know it's similar to what CJ has suggested. I don't know enough about it to render an opinion.

Thanks Fran.

Would you mind elaborating as to why you think it is better to have more arm movement with less wrist. If not, I understand.

Best Wishes.

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks Fran.

Would you mind elaborating as to why you think it is better to have more arm movement with less wrist. If not, I understand.

Best Wishes.

Sure ----

First, speaking in favor of a wrist flick --- there's really no other way to generate power without risking a double-hit when the cb and ob are extremely close together, so, flicking your wrist an important weapon to have in your arsenal because it allows the player to generate power with a short stroke.

It also gives a player an extra burst of power on big shots, like a break shot.

But here's why I wouldn't do it all the time:

In order to keep the cue moving at a constant angle of attack while flicking your wrist, you have to change your grip pressure points on the cue while it's in motion. When you do that, there is a greater risk of twisting the cue, thus driving it off-line, as opposed to keeping a more constant grip pressure and shooting with your arm. (The grip pressure does change in both instances as the cue moves, but much less so without the wrist flick).

There are also timing issues regarding the precise moment of the wrist flick. Too early or too late could result in missed shot or missed position.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sure ----

First, speaking in favor of a wrist flick --- there's really no other way to generate power without risking a double-hit when the cb and ob are extremely close together, so, flicking your wrist an important weapon to have in your arsenal because it allows the player to generate power with a short stroke.

It also gives a player an extra burst of power on big shots, like a break shot.

But here's why I wouldn't do it all the time:

In order to keep the cue moving at a constant angle of attack while flicking your wrist, you have to change your grip pressure points on the cue while it's in motion. When you do that, there is a greater risk of twisting the cue, thus driving it off-line, as opposed to keeping a more constant grip pressure and shooting with your arm. (The grip pressure does change in both instances as the cue moves, but much less so without the wrist flick).

There are also timing issues regarding the precise moment of the wrist flick. Too early or too late could result in missed shot or missed position.

Thanks Fran.

Even though I have not yet followed your philosophy, if that is the correct word, I would tend to agree with you as of late.

I don't know if it is due to age, physical change or what, but I have found some inconsistency creeping in on me & my 'normal' technique. On certain days, I actually change my grip & take the last two fingers off from around the cue & tuck them in between my palm & the cue. It has an immediate affect.

I've also tried what I think you do, which is to take the index finger off & shoot with only the last 3 fingers. That works very well but is rather uncomfortable for me, perhaps due to using that finger so much in other sports. Then sometimes I just use a 'slip stroke' & throw the cue through the shot.

Anyway, Thanks Much.
You Stay & Shoot Well.

 

[Neil]

I'd like input from some of you instructors.

Question, how does Shane deliver such a subtle hit, using such a long stroke?
He's gripping his cue almost at the butt end. Is it a wrist flick? Here's (11) min.
of Shane's stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOQDEIfVvOE

I feel that one big factor is how one starts out the final forward stroke. Most try and start the stroke with the final speed in mind and duplicate that speed right away. The real smooth strokers start out the final stroke slowly and accelerate to the desired speed. That first couple of inches starting slowly makes a huge difference in accuracy by slowly starting on the actual line of the shot. It also makes it look smooth. It's something very hard to pick up in normal video motion, but the result looks smooth.

 

[randyg]

You seem to be implying that Shane has a pendulum stroke. If that is so, disagree with that notion.

Scott Lee is correct here.

Shane has more of a Pendulum than a Piston.
Shane just doesn't FINISH his shot all the time.
Play that much pool and you can just about make anything work.

randyg

 

[BeiberLvr]

I would think like most pros Shane's stroke would be more of a J-Stroke.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I would think like most pros Shane's stroke would be more of a J-Stroke.

I agree. Here's an overlay of several screen captures, all before the final contact on the CB. He drops his elbow substantially, well before contact. This is hardly a pinned-elbow pendulum stroke.

Also, he usually raises his elbow and drops his head during the final backstroke, then raises his head slightly as his elbow drops back down a few inches before the tip even moves an inch through his bridge. This happens during the slow beginning stage of his final forward stroke (yellow line). From there on out his elbow remains mostly pinned, it's just the beginning of the stroke that has the elbow movement on most shots he takes.

Notice, though, that his shoulder never moves. It stays pinned in place (note the red arrow at the point where all the colored lines converge on the left) throughout the entire stoke. It's almost like a pivot point for his entire upper body. Quite unorthodox, but highly effective for him.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Here's an overlay of the beginning of his forward stroke. You can see that the large elbow drop happens early on, not during the follow through (he does that big time as well). You can also see the teeter-tottering effect of his body and arm around a pivot at the shoulder.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Here's one more of his huge finish. His final elbow position isn't visible from this viewpoint, but judging by the position of his grip hand I think it's pretty close to where I've drawn the yellow line.

Look at that follow through! Between his very long bridge and his long follow through, the cue joint is almost up to his bridge hand by the time he finishes the stroke. There is some slight upward movement of his head during the follow through, but again, his shoulder never moves throughout the entire stroke.

 

[ENGLISH!]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

You can call it unorthodox compared to what may be commonly taught in these current times but it is not new & has been around for as long I know & most assuredly before that.