Should Warpage be under Warranty?
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Richard,nipponbilliards said:
I dont 'expect' warpage to be under warranty but I think it should be the case.
Other than McDermott, I believe Pechauer now offers a warranty against warpage (starting Jan 1st 2006 IIRC)
Wish more would follow.
I have quite a few cues that I've collected over thirty years and none of them have warped to any unaccetable degree, with one exception. I'm very careful with them and they are stored broken down in an upright position in wall cases in a room that is heated and air coinditioned.
One cue that I had some trouble with was a beautiful custom Jacoby that I bought in 1999. One day I noticed that the butt had warped slightly. I contacted Jacoby and they said to send it to them for inspection. They looked it over and said that they would repair it at no charge and that was a very unusual thing to happen. Dave did an excellent job repairing my cue. He even refinished both shafts and retipped one, which I didn't even mention and didn't expect him to do. I don't know what their policy is regarding warpage but this was my experience with them.
I think it's unrealistic to expect a cue maker to guarantee their shafts to remain laser straight for life, especially the way some people treat/store their cues. Butts, on the other hand, should remain straight barring misuse or carrying the cue around in the trunk of a car for a couple of years.
One cue that I had some trouble with was a beautiful custom Jacoby that I bought in 1999. One day I noticed that the butt had warped slightly. I contacted Jacoby and they said to send it to them for inspection. They looked it over and said that they would repair it at no charge and that was a very unusual thing to happen. Dave did an excellent job repairing my cue. He even refinished both shafts and retipped one, which I didn't even mention and didn't expect him to do. I don't know what their policy is regarding warpage but this was my experience with them.
I think it's unrealistic to expect a cue maker to guarantee their shafts to remain laser straight for life, especially the way some people treat/store their cues. Butts, on the other hand, should remain straight barring misuse or carrying the cue around in the trunk of a car for a couple of years.
nipponbilliards said:
Interesting i just won a McDermott Tony Robles line, their newest line and it was warped.
'
I think you should warrant for warpage beyond X millimeters. "all claims must be made within X days of receipt" Something along those lines. Too risky to warrant forever.
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I tried that and didn't see where it made a significant differance. Matter a fact, I had just as much if not more warpege. Pat
In my last post I was referring to the use of Nelsonite. Didn't find it to help much. It kind of petrifies the wood. Butterflycues
I've owned probably close to 50 different cuemakers work, and every one is susceptible to warpage over time, in my opinion. I think the biggest engineering feat that should work to reduce this is the laminated shafts out there. Although any individual section of the splice, pie shaped or flat laminate may expand or contract at different rates, the other splice sections should help to hold it in place a little better than a single piece of wood in a normal shaft. I think climate and geography makes a big difference. I have heard, for instance, that Benders are prone to warpage, even the butts, as are Southwests as mentioned previously. Bender's extreme cold and dry area, or Southwest's hot and dry air are not the culprit, but when you take a cue from that area and bring it down to South Louisiana where it is hot and humid, you may be asking for trouble. I try to keep my shafts clean and dry, and purchased a conditioner used on wooden cutting boards and use it at the pin end of the shafts and butt. This helps to keep moisture from entering through the natural grain of the wood by capillary action. Seems to have worked on most of my stuff, but I do not expect any shaft to be perfectly straight and stay that way forever. But I don't expect any cue to warp so much that it affects the play.
Thank you for everyone's comment and suggestion.
I am build the X Breaker in Vancouver, which is really warm compared to most other cities in North America, but it is very humid as it rains all the time. We did not have a single drop of snow this winter.
With regard to laminated shaft, interestingly, I have seen a lot of those that warped. Whether it be flat laminated or pie laminated. I think if the shaft is turned and cut too fast this could happen.
Have anyone else had this issue with laminated shaft or is it just me?
In my opinion, the key to a straight shaft is to release the internal stress as much as possible. If that is not done porperly, whether I seal it or not would not make too much difference. On the other hand, I expect sealing to help on a piece of shaft which has been properly seasoned and its stress released.
As a lot have pointed out, warpage occurs over time on cues from various cue makers ranging from high end to production to everything in between. I suspect it has also a lot to do with local climate.
I once heard that the shaft tends to warp if it sits in a case without being used. I think that is quite interesting.
Going back to the topic, let me see if I can sum up what was expressed on this topic.
Am I right in saying that it is the opinion from the majority that warpage is something very hard, if not impossible, to warrant for life?
Some people would appreciate seeing a company willing to warrant warpage but they also understand that it would be very difficult. Some consider it an unrealistic pratice.
Some big companies are offering this warrant and when their shafts warp, which they do, they just replace them. In the case of these companies, the cost of the replacement is added onto the cost of the cues and is shared by the thousands of buyers.
Some suggest to offer a conditional warranty on warpage for three months or with some sort of conditions such as how many mm and so on. Dave suggested to ask the user some questions to determine whether it was the problem of the user or that of the manufacturer.
Shane believes that warranty on warpage is a good thing to do and he wishes more will start offering that.
Some believe that a good piece of shaft wood should not warp 80% of the time regardless of handling/storage; while others said their shafts had all warpped one way or another although they have exercised good care.
Nelsonite was suggested as a sealant but someone else posted saying it did not help his shafts at all. It actually seemed to have made it worst.
A lot of posters said they expect their shafts to warp a bit and it is acceptable. However, they do not expect the butt to warp and would consider it unacceptable.
Have I missed anything?
Thank so much everyone for your valuable comment and suggestion. I really appreciate that. You are all so knowledgable and professional. Thank you for taking your precious time to offer me your valuable input.
Thank you.
Richard
I am build the X Breaker in Vancouver, which is really warm compared to most other cities in North America, but it is very humid as it rains all the time. We did not have a single drop of snow this winter.
With regard to laminated shaft, interestingly, I have seen a lot of those that warped. Whether it be flat laminated or pie laminated. I think if the shaft is turned and cut too fast this could happen.
Have anyone else had this issue with laminated shaft or is it just me?
In my opinion, the key to a straight shaft is to release the internal stress as much as possible. If that is not done porperly, whether I seal it or not would not make too much difference. On the other hand, I expect sealing to help on a piece of shaft which has been properly seasoned and its stress released.
As a lot have pointed out, warpage occurs over time on cues from various cue makers ranging from high end to production to everything in between. I suspect it has also a lot to do with local climate.
I once heard that the shaft tends to warp if it sits in a case without being used. I think that is quite interesting.
Going back to the topic, let me see if I can sum up what was expressed on this topic.
Am I right in saying that it is the opinion from the majority that warpage is something very hard, if not impossible, to warrant for life?
Some people would appreciate seeing a company willing to warrant warpage but they also understand that it would be very difficult. Some consider it an unrealistic pratice.
Some big companies are offering this warrant and when their shafts warp, which they do, they just replace them. In the case of these companies, the cost of the replacement is added onto the cost of the cues and is shared by the thousands of buyers.
Some suggest to offer a conditional warranty on warpage for three months or with some sort of conditions such as how many mm and so on. Dave suggested to ask the user some questions to determine whether it was the problem of the user or that of the manufacturer.
Shane believes that warranty on warpage is a good thing to do and he wishes more will start offering that.
Some believe that a good piece of shaft wood should not warp 80% of the time regardless of handling/storage; while others said their shafts had all warpped one way or another although they have exercised good care.
Nelsonite was suggested as a sealant but someone else posted saying it did not help his shafts at all. It actually seemed to have made it worst.
A lot of posters said they expect their shafts to warp a bit and it is acceptable. However, they do not expect the butt to warp and would consider it unacceptable.
Have I missed anything?
Thank so much everyone for your valuable comment and suggestion. I really appreciate that. You are all so knowledgable and professional. Thank you for taking your precious time to offer me your valuable input.
Thank you.
Richard
It's very simple. There is no right or wrong.
If a company values its reputation and customers, they will have customer friendly policies designed to encourage repeat business.
From an economics standpoint, it is very costly to get customer. Not to nourish that relationship is wasteful.
I would like to see warpage covered for a certain time period, like one year for example. I've had some shafts come in from a manufacturer that warped in three months sitting in my climate controlled house.
As far as I'm concerned, that's a quality control issue, and their refusal to replace warped shafts results in lost customers. Despite their policies, I would prefer that they make shafts the proper way which makes them less likely to warp.
Chris
If a company values its reputation and customers, they will have customer friendly policies designed to encourage repeat business.
From an economics standpoint, it is very costly to get customer. Not to nourish that relationship is wasteful.
I would like to see warpage covered for a certain time period, like one year for example. I've had some shafts come in from a manufacturer that warped in three months sitting in my climate controlled house.
As far as I'm concerned, that's a quality control issue, and their refusal to replace warped shafts results in lost customers. Despite their policies, I would prefer that they make shafts the proper way which makes them less likely to warp.
Chris
What I think is reasonable is a limited warranty that offers replacement shafts at a discount if it warps within a year. If a shaft retails at $100, I would put the replacement at 30-50 bucks...enough to cover costs.
I do think that pie-lams are inherently warp-resistent, given that the individual pieces are stress-relieved and seasoned properly.
-Roger
I do think that pie-lams are inherently warp-resistent, given that the individual pieces are stress-relieved and seasoned properly.
-Roger
I have a buddy that has kept his cue (Viking) in his trunk for years and it hasnt warped. We live in Miami too, so you talk about heat in the summer and rain all the time. He keeps it in a porper 1x2.
My question is whether this is an extraordinary thing? Does the heat warp cues or is it a combination of heat and moisture? If someone keeps their cue in an airtight case (like a Centennial/ItsGeorge tube style), is it common for cues to warp if exposed to heat?
One thing that made this thread interesting to me is that I have so many times wished I had a cue in my car. If I could keep a McDermott or Pechauer in my car and if it warped get it replaced, to me this would be worth buying just to know I always have a cue available.
My question is whether this is an extraordinary thing? Does the heat warp cues or is it a combination of heat and moisture? If someone keeps their cue in an airtight case (like a Centennial/ItsGeorge tube style), is it common for cues to warp if exposed to heat?
One thing that made this thread interesting to me is that I have so many times wished I had a cue in my car. If I could keep a McDermott or Pechauer in my car and if it warped get it replaced, to me this would be worth buying just to know I always have a cue available.