Should Warpage be under Warranty?
- Thread starter X Breaker
- Start date
Just for the record, we offer a life time warranty on the X Breaker but we do not cover warpage and/or abuse. It is clearly stated on my site.
All my cues were guaranteed straight when I sent them out, and I ask my dealers to check straightness of their X breakers before they were sent out to customers.
However, if the cue is warpped on arrival/shorty after arrival I will gladly replace it, sometimes, it is a problem of shipping/storage. I do that at my own discretion but I will try my best to do everything I can to make sure my customers are satisfied and proud of their X Breaker.
Having said that, if someone bought a X Breaker from one of our dealers say 4 months ago, broke with it many times, and then ask me to replace him a new cue because it is not straight anymore, I would most likely decline.
I personally only used FedEx overnight because I hate to put my customer's cue in the back of a vehicle any longer than is necessary. I charge $35 to ship to the lower 48.
Sometimes, our dealers offer the option of free UPS ground but that could be problematic because it may take up to a week with the cue sitting in a truck for a long time.
I believe it is very reasonable the way I deal with warpage, what are your thoughts?
What do other companies do?
Richard
All my cues were guaranteed straight when I sent them out, and I ask my dealers to check straightness of their X breakers before they were sent out to customers.
However, if the cue is warpped on arrival/shorty after arrival I will gladly replace it, sometimes, it is a problem of shipping/storage. I do that at my own discretion but I will try my best to do everything I can to make sure my customers are satisfied and proud of their X Breaker.
Having said that, if someone bought a X Breaker from one of our dealers say 4 months ago, broke with it many times, and then ask me to replace him a new cue because it is not straight anymore, I would most likely decline.
I personally only used FedEx overnight because I hate to put my customer's cue in the back of a vehicle any longer than is necessary. I charge $35 to ship to the lower 48.
Sometimes, our dealers offer the option of free UPS ground but that could be problematic because it may take up to a week with the cue sitting in a truck for a long time.
I believe it is very reasonable the way I deal with warpage, what are your thoughts?
What do other companies do?
Richard
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I personally guarentee for workmanship and materials. I also guarantee straightness at time of shipping. Most cuemakers do everything possible to give the customer the highest quality cue that is humanly possible. However, we can't hold every customer's hand and make sure the cue is properly cared for. You know the guy who keeps his cue in the trunk of his car in case he stops at the pool room after work. Or the guy that left his cue at a buddies house and it got tossed in a closet waiting to be picked up.
Its hard to believe that some people will spend lots of hard earned cash for a prize cue and abuse it, but they do. There can be no warrenty for stupid. "Stupid is as stupid does".
Its hard to believe that some people will spend lots of hard earned cash for a prize cue and abuse it, but they do. There can be no warrenty for stupid. "Stupid is as stupid does".
I do not know of another cue manufacturer other than McDermott that offers a warrantee against warpage.
I know McDermott's warrantee affords them a lot of business. It is more than just a warrantee for your particular cue -- it says a lot about the quality of construction and materials, and it guarantees that the manufacturer will keep that quality level high (unlike, say, Meucci
).
Truthfully, a good piece of wood won't warp and a bad piece of wood will, 80% independent of the care that the owner gives.
If you are confident in your wood selection (straight grained, good density) and treatment, then you could be well served to offer this warrantee.
I know McDermott's warrantee affords them a lot of business. It is more than just a warrantee for your particular cue -- it says a lot about the quality of construction and materials, and it guarantees that the manufacturer will keep that quality level high (unlike, say, Meucci
).Truthfully, a good piece of wood won't warp and a bad piece of wood will, 80% independent of the care that the owner gives.
If you are confident in your wood selection (straight grained, good density) and treatment, then you could be well served to offer this warrantee.
thoffen said:
I do not know if McDermott is getting more business than before. I also have no idea of knowing if they do, that it is because of the warranty.
I have seen a lot of Southwest shafts warpped in Taiwan. I am not trying to isolate Southwest, but I am using it as an example because Southwest is a reputable company, and they know their wood. Taiwan is very humid, and air conditioning is very common. I will not say the wood used by Southwest is of poor quality, because I see this as a handling and storage problem.
Wood is porous and sensitive to temperature and moisture!
I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is very important to treat the wood porperly, but it is equally important to maintain it afterwards.
Don't you agree we have so many cue cases built just to serve the purpose of protecting cues for this very reason?
Richard
Richard I'd have to say the answers you've gotten are accurate. I would only add that a high volume manufacturer can afford to add a small amount to the price of their cues to offset the cost of a warpage warranty somewhat. Smaller volume companies and independants (custom) often do not have this option. Your policy is very much like what I have heard from the better custom cuemakers and is much better than "MOST" of the high volume manufacturers and distributors. To offer a warranty like that you have to first be confident in the quality of the product,second have enough established business to add a couple of bucks to the customer cost without losing business,third market the warranty as a sales incentive, fourth accept that business may or may not increase, fifth honor the warranty.
Terry
Edit- Oh and McDermott must be doing more business they've revamped their site,introducing new models, and funding a tour I think.
Terry
Edit- Oh and McDermott must be doing more business they've revamped their site,introducing new models, and funding a tour I think.
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I wish I could really warrant warpage. When I say "really" I mean to offer a warranty on warpage because I have found a way to be 100% that my shafts will not warp no matter what.
Right now, like you said, a lot of companies offer warranty because they are mass producing their cues so they can afford to just send out another one and still make a profit. It is a warranty that you will get another cue if something goes wrong, but it is not a warranty on the quality of the workmanship itself. I still think it is very admirable that they are at least doing their best to look after their customers.
Some other big companies is not even willing to do that as far as I know. Does predator offer any warranty on warpage? Do they guarantee straightness of their shafts on arrival?
You know, Terry. I have tried to insert a stable insert as the core of my shaft and it seems to work very well; however, I just found out Mezz is holding a patent of a similiar design with their hybrid shafts. I am not too sure what Mcdermot is doing with their new shafts. I am under the impression that some sort of insert is being placed in the core of the shaft.
I am working on a few designs now and hopefully, I can come up with a shaft that will be very stable under all kinds of xtreme conditions.
Since I am building breaking cues, it is really hard to prevent wrapage when the players are all trying to hit the ball as hard as they can and bend the shaft on the table and what not.
Cuetec uses graphite and it is not supposed to warp. However, I do not think graphite makes a good shaft in regard to playability and sensitivity. Fibreglass is also very sticky.
May be someday I can figure out a way. Wish me luck.
Richard
Right now, like you said, a lot of companies offer warranty because they are mass producing their cues so they can afford to just send out another one and still make a profit. It is a warranty that you will get another cue if something goes wrong, but it is not a warranty on the quality of the workmanship itself. I still think it is very admirable that they are at least doing their best to look after their customers.
Some other big companies is not even willing to do that as far as I know. Does predator offer any warranty on warpage? Do they guarantee straightness of their shafts on arrival?
You know, Terry. I have tried to insert a stable insert as the core of my shaft and it seems to work very well; however, I just found out Mezz is holding a patent of a similiar design with their hybrid shafts. I am not too sure what Mcdermot is doing with their new shafts. I am under the impression that some sort of insert is being placed in the core of the shaft.
I am working on a few designs now and hopefully, I can come up with a shaft that will be very stable under all kinds of xtreme conditions.
Since I am building breaking cues, it is really hard to prevent wrapage when the players are all trying to hit the ball as hard as they can and bend the shaft on the table and what not.
Cuetec uses graphite and it is not supposed to warp. However, I do not think graphite makes a good shaft in regard to playability and sensitivity. Fibreglass is also very sticky.
May be someday I can figure out a way. Wish me luck.
Richard
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Richard,
Hello & how are you? This is a tough one to answer, here's why:
1) Is the cause of warpage due to the shaft wood not being completely cured? If so, you should warranty it.
2) Is the warpage due to the shaft wood being too young/green to start with (similar to #1 but not exactly)? If so, you should warranty it.
3) Is the warpage due to the shaft being turned to soon between turns (not enough time to settle) or cut too deeply? If so, you should warranty it.
4) Is the warpage due to quality of shaft wood, such as grain that's not consistant throughout the shaft causing one side to bow the other side? If so, you should warranty it.
5) Is the warpage due to poor storage by the owner as discussed in this thread (i.e. stored in the car/trunk or stored against an outside wall, which tends to draw the shaft wood to the wall during temperature swings (by the way, this is one of the three Ds: Don't Do Dat)? If so, you should NOT warranty it.
6) If the warpage only takes place in dry climates such as Arizona & Colorado than it may have to do with the fact the cues are manufactured in a humid climate and they carry a little moisture with them, which evaporates once it has spent time in a dry climate causing the warpage. This is a tough one to determine warranty or not. It certainly was no fault of the new owner so maybe the cue has to be sealed better. Who knows.
As you can see, there are quality issues that you should warrant & cockpit user errors you should not. I don't believe breaking with a good shaft will warp it on its own. This is why it's such a tough decision. I guess it comes down to your quality control and how the shafts & butts are constructed. Wood too green to start with, not aged enough throughout the process , etc. If you are confident in your process and wood selection, than maybe it would be a good idea to warranty against warping within the first 3-4 months or so (lifetime is unreasonable in my opinion). If you are getting a high number of warpped cues at the dealer level, you should look at your process more closely. It's my opinion that you will save money in the long run to "do it right" if this is the case. Either way, I don't envy you this decision.
Now with that said, I loved the feel and performance of the X-breaker I was testing at the US Open and as I said before, if I were looking for j/b cue today, I would choose the X-breaker. It's awesome.
Hope this helps, Dave
Hello & how are you? This is a tough one to answer, here's why:
1) Is the cause of warpage due to the shaft wood not being completely cured? If so, you should warranty it.
2) Is the warpage due to the shaft wood being too young/green to start with (similar to #1 but not exactly)? If so, you should warranty it.
3) Is the warpage due to the shaft being turned to soon between turns (not enough time to settle) or cut too deeply? If so, you should warranty it.
4) Is the warpage due to quality of shaft wood, such as grain that's not consistant throughout the shaft causing one side to bow the other side? If so, you should warranty it.
5) Is the warpage due to poor storage by the owner as discussed in this thread (i.e. stored in the car/trunk or stored against an outside wall, which tends to draw the shaft wood to the wall during temperature swings (by the way, this is one of the three Ds: Don't Do Dat)? If so, you should NOT warranty it.
6) If the warpage only takes place in dry climates such as Arizona & Colorado than it may have to do with the fact the cues are manufactured in a humid climate and they carry a little moisture with them, which evaporates once it has spent time in a dry climate causing the warpage. This is a tough one to determine warranty or not. It certainly was no fault of the new owner so maybe the cue has to be sealed better. Who knows.
As you can see, there are quality issues that you should warrant & cockpit user errors you should not. I don't believe breaking with a good shaft will warp it on its own. This is why it's such a tough decision. I guess it comes down to your quality control and how the shafts & butts are constructed. Wood too green to start with, not aged enough throughout the process , etc. If you are confident in your process and wood selection, than maybe it would be a good idea to warranty against warping within the first 3-4 months or so (lifetime is unreasonable in my opinion). If you are getting a high number of warpped cues at the dealer level, you should look at your process more closely. It's my opinion that you will save money in the long run to "do it right" if this is the case. Either way, I don't envy you this decision.
Now with that said, I loved the feel and performance of the X-breaker I was testing at the US Open and as I said before, if I were looking for j/b cue today, I would choose the X-breaker. It's awesome.
Hope this helps, Dave
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Hello Dave,
How are you? I hope all is well with you.
Fortunately I do not have a large volume of complaint at all, warpage is not really an issue so far. (With my fingers crossed...)
Having said that, I do need to know what is considered an acceptable limit to a warranty.
I am offering some warranty that even some companies much bigger than mine would not offer.
For example, I do not think Predator will guarantee that the tip on its new BK2 will not come off.
I guarantee that my tip will not come off, and that it will not crack. If it does during normal usage, I will send a new cue to the user. For a small operation like mine, that is quite a strong warranty.
I want to make sure my customers are totally comfortable dealing with me. However, warpage is a very tricky issue and I am not sure if it is wise to offer life time warranty.
Since I am always back ordered there is always a waiting list, I can only build a fixed number of cues per month, sending out replacments means a longer waiting period for other paying customers. If I have to do that because there is a manufacturer defect, than I will; but if it is not the case, then it is unfair to those who have been patiently waiting for their cues that they have to keep waiting longer and longer.
In your opinion, is there a way to tell if the warpage is a result of abuse or manufacturer defect?
And perhaps I can offer a three month warranty against warpage?
Thank you.
Richard
How are you? I hope all is well with you.
Fortunately I do not have a large volume of complaint at all, warpage is not really an issue so far. (With my fingers crossed...)
Having said that, I do need to know what is considered an acceptable limit to a warranty.
I am offering some warranty that even some companies much bigger than mine would not offer.
For example, I do not think Predator will guarantee that the tip on its new BK2 will not come off.
I guarantee that my tip will not come off, and that it will not crack. If it does during normal usage, I will send a new cue to the user. For a small operation like mine, that is quite a strong warranty.
I want to make sure my customers are totally comfortable dealing with me. However, warpage is a very tricky issue and I am not sure if it is wise to offer life time warranty.
Since I am always back ordered there is always a waiting list, I can only build a fixed number of cues per month, sending out replacments means a longer waiting period for other paying customers. If I have to do that because there is a manufacturer defect, than I will; but if it is not the case, then it is unfair to those who have been patiently waiting for their cues that they have to keep waiting longer and longer.
In your opinion, is there a way to tell if the warpage is a result of abuse or manufacturer defect?
And perhaps I can offer a three month warranty against warpage?
Thank you.
Richard
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Richard,
With good seasoning on the shaft and treating it
with nelsonite would be a great idea(im not a cue maker).
Best shaft i came across is from Omen cue, can i say its
warp proof... It went through tremendous humidity and extreme
heat of 40 defree celciuos (leaving it in my car) and extreme cold in my pool room. I played only a few time with it. Not my favourite due to the joint where he cuts out the treads to engrave Omen which has weaken the cue performance IMO.
Anyway i going to get one breaker from you... warpage or not.
Johnny
With good seasoning on the shaft and treating it
with nelsonite would be a great idea(im not a cue maker).
Best shaft i came across is from Omen cue, can i say its
warp proof... It went through tremendous humidity and extreme
heat of 40 defree celciuos (leaving it in my car) and extreme cold in my pool room. I played only a few time with it. Not my favourite due to the joint where he cuts out the treads to engrave Omen which has weaken the cue performance IMO.
Anyway i going to get one breaker from you... warpage or not.
Johnny
Wood moves...it's a fact. A small amount of warpage in the shaft...small...can almost always be expected. However, when the warpage is in the butt section of the cue, is when I begin to have issues...especially as careful as I am with my equipment. When this happens, it can often be indicative of not properly seasoning the wood before it is turned.
Living out in the boonies as I do....I was actually lucky enough to see one of your X-Breakers about a week ago. It was quite nicely done...I was impressed with the workmanship, and it sounded like a cannon when it broke. No, I did not get the pleasure to actually break with it...I would not be so presumptious as to ask anyone to handle their cue(s).
Perhaps sometime soon I will be able to replace the SP I am planning on using as my breaker with a real break cue....and I will be looking at yours.
Take care...
Lisa
Living out in the boonies as I do....I was actually lucky enough to see one of your X-Breakers about a week ago. It was quite nicely done...I was impressed with the workmanship, and it sounded like a cannon when it broke. No, I did not get the pleasure to actually break with it...I would not be so presumptious as to ask anyone to handle their cue(s).
Perhaps sometime soon I will be able to replace the SP I am planning on using as my breaker with a real break cue....and I will be looking at yours.
Take care...
Lisa
I have necer had a problem in that area and my cue maker has built 8 shafts for me
btw,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Barry is the best
btw,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Barry is the best
Most cuemakers I have ever worked with provide a full warranty against warpage if it can be proven that the cue owner was not at fault by leaving it an atmosphere that would allow moisture/temperature to be a contributing factor. I think this is kind of a subjective.... grey area, and up to the cuemaker to make a gut decision based on how well they know the owner of the cue.
nipponbilliards said:
Richard, first let me make it perfectly clear to everyone that I was not referring to the X-breaker's quality by listing some of the possible ways a cue could warp above. From what I've seen, you make an unbelievably great quality product. I was just trying to answer your question.
It's very difficult to tell what the causes are when a cue warps. One thought: I noticed that on some of the shafts I had warp on me, I could see that the grain formed a small circle on one side only. This seemed to cause the warpage because the cue bent around that circle of grain. I have never identified what may cause a butt to warp other than not sealing the wrap portion of a butt properly when a cue was made and shipped from FLA for example (humid climate) to a dryer climate like CO. This would not pertain to you if there were no wrap. If you install a wrap, please be careful to seal the exposed wood under the wrap really thoroughly.
I believe that if you offer a 3-month warranty, this would be plenty of time for the cue to warp due to change of atmosphere or defects. And it's not enough time for abuse...if someone leaves a cue in extreme heat like a car in the summer, or whatever, the cue may wrap within the 3 months but that would probably indicate the cue wasn't seasoned or dried completely when received. So the 3 months should cover them and you.
Maybe even have a questioniare to fill out before shipping the cue out: you know, how was the cue stored? ever left in the car? if used at home, was it on a wall rack? where was the rack located? Stuff like that.
Dave
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PoolSleuth
Banned
nipponbilliards said:
Stupid Older Friend leaves her Dufferin in the its SOFTCASE in the Trunk of the Car all the time. This past Summer it get to 115 outside the Trunk at times, and in the evening the Car is parked in a HOT GARAGE. Cue WARPS. Who falt was the Warpade? Stupid Owner I say....
Purdman
Banned
My Experience
I think I have only seen 2 maybe 3 shafts out of hundreds that have absolutely no warpage. I pulled out a 99 Espiritu last night that has only hit 10 balls. New cue, slight warp. No temperature or humidity change at all. Been in a dealers case for 7 years. I also have high end cues ($6,600 thru $2,200) that have slight warpage. Tell me why some of my old cues (70's, 80's) didn't warp.
How much do you guys think is acceptable?
Purdman
I think I have only seen 2 maybe 3 shafts out of hundreds that have absolutely no warpage. I pulled out a 99 Espiritu last night that has only hit 10 balls. New cue, slight warp. No temperature or humidity change at all. Been in a dealers case for 7 years. I also have high end cues ($6,600 thru $2,200) that have slight warpage. Tell me why some of my old cues (70's, 80's) didn't warp.
How much do you guys think is acceptable?
Purdman
I have been dealing cues for 15 years and building them since 99. I usually don't get envolved in these discutions but this one kind of touches me. We are dealing with a natural material. Wood! What causes wood to warp or move as I call it, is moisture leaving or the wood taking on moisture. Either can cause it. Fact of it is, I have been doing cue repair for 15 years or better and I have worked on every kind of cue out there. I have yeat to find any of you fellows who make a warp free cue. Including my self. I have made a lot of shafts that didn't move and I have seen a lot of you make shafts that didn't move, but I have also seen all of the same people make shafts that did. This includes the likes of McDermott, Schon, Joss, Szmbodi, Stroud, You name it. I agree with a lot of the other gentlemen that you can do nothing more at this end to really stop it. Once it leaves the shop, who knows what it is going to do. You send it to another regioun and another climate and you have no control. Just my thaughts. Butterflycues
It is a continue process to look after a piece of wood. In my opinion, this piece of wood does not know whether it has left the shop or not, it will keep reacting with its surrounding continuously and behave accordingly. I think a cue maker can do everything in his power and spend over 10 years to turn the best shaft blank he can find with super tight and straight grain and what not, but if it is not being cared for porperly after it leaves the shop, it will still absord or release moisture, expand and contract due to temperature variation, and chances are, it may warp.
What is the right thing to do as a cue maker?
Thank you.
What is the right thing to do as a cue maker?
Thank you.
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