Slow Play - How It Should Be Treated in Leagues & Tournaments

[Jude Rosenstock]

• Do you think slow play is a problem in organized play (leagues and/or tournaments)?
• Does your league/tournament offer solutions to slow play that you consider fair?
• How do you feel about a shot clock?
• What would be a reasonable amount of time for a routine shot? Slightly difficult shot? Very difficult shot?
• How much time should a race to 7 in 9ball take?
• How much time should a 125 point game of 14.1 take?
• Do you think a shot clock is the best solution? If not, what would you suggest?

Please feel free to free-write your answers. I'm not looking for itemized responses (hence, no poll) but rather trying to see what people think and possibly see if there is a great idea out there that organized pool hasn't considered.

 

[noRulez]

Funny you should mention this. I have league tonight and we're playing a team with very slow shooters! Personally it drives me nuts, but that's my problem. To be honest, I don't know how to remedy this situation. I, personally, wouldn't really like a shot clock and our matches are not ref'd so then we'd have the issue of who is keeping time, etc. In my opinion, it's more about respect for the game and your opponent. I can understand if you're 90 yrs old and don't get around too fast, but if you're using it as a sharking technique, then I hope karma bites you in the a$$. In short, I have no productive answer but look forward to everyone else's recommendations.

 

[BVal]

• Do you think slow play is a problem in organized play (leagues and/or tournaments)?
• Does your league/tournament offer solutions to slow play that you consider fair?
• How do you feel about a shot clock?
• What would be a reasonable amount of time for a routine shot? Slightly difficult shot? Very difficult shot?
• How much time should a race to 7 in 9ball take?
• How much time should a 125 point game of 14.1 take?
• Do you think a shot clock is the best solution? If not, what would you suggest?

Please feel free to free-write your answers. I'm not looking for itemized responses (hence, no poll) but rather trying to see what people think and possibly see if there is a great idea out there that organized pool hasn't considered.

Just play your game no matter what. They can't play slow if they are not at the table.

BVal

 

[9ballprodigy]

jeez... i think some people naturally shoot slow. i've never had a problem with my opponent shooting slow except for the fact that they usually run racks so i end up getting this feeling like the dagger is going in s-l-o-w-l-y.

as for a shot clock, i think that was only developed for ESPN matches where so they can predict a certain amount of time for a set so they can televise it without too much editing.

i have no problem having a game of 9-ball taking 10 minutes. sometimes the layout is really messed up. sometimes the opponent i'm playing is in his 60's or 70's and i can't expect "luc salvas" out of them. sometimes, it's a hardshot that requires a lot of focus. so i can understand. and sometimes, playing slow and methodical is the only way for the guy to get in stroke. like me.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Just play your game no matter what. They can't play slow if they are not at the table.

BVal

This is a perfectly reasonable attitude to have regarding your matches however, what if you were playing in a tournament and a slow match was holding up your entire bracket?

 

[teebee]

If keeping time in a league was necessary a simple chess timer would be sufficient. When your turn is over you tap it and the other guy's time starts. The time is adjustable. If it times out - BIH foul. 60 seconds seems like a lot of time but would speed up some of the people I have played with.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

jeez... i think some people naturally shoot slow. i've never had a problem with my opponent shooting slow except for the fact that they usually run racks so i end up getting this feeling like the dagger is going in s-l-o-w-l-y.

as for a shot clock, i think that was only developed for ESPN matches where so they can predict a certain amount of time for a set so they can televise it without too much editing.

i have no problem having a game of 9-ball taking 10 minutes. sometimes the layout is really messed up. sometimes the opponent i'm playing is in his 60's or 70's and i can't expect "luc salvas" out of them. sometimes, it's a hardshot that requires a lot of focus. so i can understand. and sometimes, playing slow and methodical is the only way for the guy to get in stroke. like me.

Shot clocks are sometimes used upon request in organized play. Rarely are fouls called - it's simply used to keep things at a reasonable pace but I cannot say this is always effective.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

If keeping time in a league was necessary a simple chess timer would be sufficient. When your turn is over you tap it and the other guy's time starts. The time is adjustable. If it times out - BIH foul. 60 seconds seems like a lot of time but would speed up some of the people I have played with.

Not a bad idea. Should smoke breaks and bathroom breaks be included in a player's time?

 

[hilla_hilla]

Tournaments, 30 second shot clock (is standard, I think)

League, see if they can get 2 tables playing at once, this way you can at least go home on time

It's hard to criticize league players because of all of the different/lower levels of play. Seasoned players should know better, but then again, look at the players that have played forever and it takes them DAYS to shoot (Arturo, Mike Defino).

I'm a rhythm player myself so slow play absolutely KILLS me. Usually I watch someone elses match because I can't stand to watch my own, especially when I'm being slow played. I guess it's my own fault for allowing my opponent to the table .

 

[BVal]

This is a perfectly reasonable attitude to have regarding your matches however, what if you were playing in a tournament and a slow match was holding up your entire bracket?

Then it is up to the tourney director to do something about it. I either get something to eat or practice a little. This actually happened the other night in a scotch doubles tourney I was playing in. One team shot super slow and held up the bracket by 2 matches. The TD politely asked them to pick up the pace and they did. In the mean time I ate and got ready to play for the hotseat

BVal

 

[Travis Bickle]

In the past, chess clocks have been suggested here (and again while I was typing this). I'm not sure exactly how you determine how much time to allow for a match, but I think that might be a good way to go. Personally, from somebody who has progressed from slug pace to snail pace to maybe mule pace (enuf that I haven't been given any grief for a couple of years, at least!) I could go with about 45 secs a shot allowed on average. I don't think 30 is enough, really, even for pros.

Guess you'd have to come up with a formula to estimate shots per game per match, adjust them for level of play and length of race. Has anybody done it?

Of course, you'd have to have a contingency for a player using all his allotted time early ... can't make somebody play speed pool and turn it into a joke, though I'm sure it would be entertaining. Maybe THEN, the TD sets a strict 30-sec limit for that player for the rest of the match.

 

[teebee]

I think there should be no breaks during a game. It's ten minutes or less. Make your preparations before the game and play.

 

[BrooklynJay]

what do you consider slow play? maybe you play too fast? if the person normally plays this way then that's his "speed" - why should he be penalized for it?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Tournaments, 30 sec shot clock

League, see if they can get 2 tables playing at once, this way you can at least go home on time

I'm a rhythm player myself so slow play absolutely KILLS me. Usually I watch someone elses match because I can't stand to watch my own, especially when I'm being slow played. I guess it's my own fault for allowing my opponent to the table .

In your tournament suggestion, should it be 30 seconds for ALL shots or should a player be allowed to ask for more time in special circumstances. Even the fastest players in the world occasionally need to give unusual shots added attention.

In regards to league play, your answer assumes a second table is readily available. What if a room typically does not have extra tables to accommodate slow matches?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Then it is up to the tourney director to do something about it. I either get something to eat or practice a little. This actually happened the other night in a scotch doubles tourney I was playing in. One team shot super slow and held up the bracket by 2 matches. The TD politely asked them to pick up the pace and they did. In the mean time I ate and got ready to play for the hotseat

BVal

This actually reminds me of an interesting situation I was in a few years ago at a Joss event -

I was scheduled to play the final match of the day in a two-day event and for whatever reason, that match did not start until 1am. The local law said the poolroom must close by 2am without exception. Is it fair that because of slow play before me, I must play so late and with the knowledge that the match will be halted if it goes beyond 2am?

Sometimes simply asking the offending party to "speed it up" isn't sufficient. The damage becomes so widespread that there is nothing that can be done about it.

 

[LILJOHN30]

slow play

I generally don't have a problem with slow players,but some players are ridiculous.I played in a tournament and sat broke and didn't make a ball,my opponent took about 5 mins to decide what he was going to do.The only good thing was when he started to shoot he went rather fast,still couldn't get out.He made 4 balls and missed I laughed to myself.I think there should be a time limit on a shot,1 min would be plenty,The rule doesn't have to be set in stone but should be there for initiative to play faster or for those certain people.A ball in hand with 3 balls isn't a hard out but I have scene people take an outlandish amount of time on something like that [1-2min] and still not get out. It drives me nuts and It's a reason I don't like to play leagues.I know there are different skill levels and understand that,but these examples are from the higher ranked players in the league 7-8.These people should know what there doing.I have even scene in a nine ball game a ball in hand with three balls on the table and the player played "SAFE". Know I said 3 balls left and a ball in hand what more do you want, there were no balls tied up granted 2 of the balls were on the rail but each rail ball lead to the other by just popping off the rail.

 

[hilla_hilla]

In your tournament suggestion, should it be 30 seconds for ALL shots or should a player be allowed to ask for more time in special circumstances. Even the fastest players in the world occasionally need to give unusual shots added attention.

In regards to league play, your answer assumes a second table is readily available. What if a room typically does not have extra tables to accommodate slow matches?

I'm not sure what the time allotted is for an extension, maybe 10 seconds. The best person to ask would be Jay Helfert.

Every time I have played league there have been at least two if not multiple pool tables to use. If there is only one table I would suggest calling the league operator to see what they would suggest. Maybe a part of your match (as inconveninet as it might be) could be rescheduled or maybe your LO could suggest a shot clock. Maybe a full minute for 4's and bellow and 30 seconds for 5-7's.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

what do you consider slow play? maybe you play too fast? if the person normally plays this way then that's his "speed" - why should he be penalized for it?

This is a good question. "Slow Play" is something everyone should define for themselves. Personally, I believe a race to 7 should take no more than an hour and a 125 point game of straight pool should take no more than 90 minutes. However, just because a match may exceed what I think is an appropriate amount of time does not automatically mean they're slow and all the same, the opposite can also be said. Just because a match ends quickly, doesn't necessarily mean both players are fast.

I believe pool should have a steady pace to it. Players should remain at the table until their turn is done (not returning to their seat every turn to retrieve powder or a towel) and they should immediately begin to address their next shot. Any behavior that could be viewed as stalling (redundant actions, non-directional actions) should be discouraged. Player should never feel rushed to take a difficult shot EVER, however, they should address routine shots accordingly.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'm not sure what the time allotted is for an extension, maybe 10 seconds. The best person to ask would be Jay Helfert.

Every time I have played league there have been at least two if not multiple pool tables to use. If there is only one table I would suggest calling the league operator to see what they would suggest. Maybe a part of your match (as inconveninet as it might be) could be rescheduled or maybe your LO could suggest a shot clock. Maybe a full minute for 4's and bellow and 30 seconds for 5-7's.

But I don't want Jay's opinion. I want YOURS. This isn't about how well you play pool because slow play doesn't just affect professional pool players. It affects EVERYONE. So, the best person to ask is YOU. What do YOU think is fair?

 

[hilla_hilla]

But I don't want Jay's opinion. I want YOURS. This isn't about how well you play pool because slow play doesn't just affect professional pool players. It affects EVERYONE. So, the best person to ask is YOU. What do YOU think is fair?

I've run quite a few tournaments, mainly in San Diego. I would not use a shot clock unless a player was holding a tournament up. I have used a shot clock one time and that was during the Ron Greenberg Memorial tournament 2 years ago. Arturo Rivera was slow playing Tang Hoa and after enough complaints, I put Arturo on the shot clock and gave him a full minute, which was entirely to long! After that tournament I asked various tournament directors and players what the standard rule was and if my memory serves me correct, the answer was 30 seconds.

I think that a full minute is to long and 30 seconds is about right for a higher caliber player. A player should be able to ask for more time, but I also don't think a player should be able to abuse this either.

Shot clocks don't come into play unless there are complaints and usually, as a tournament director, I know which players play faster or slower and use this to determine which brackets to start with first.