Slow Players and the Shot Clock at Regional Events

Here is a link to a thread discussing shot clocks.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=102066&highlight=chess+clock

You should not start a shot clock in the middle of a match. That usually benefits the player with the lead, who usually was taking up all the time.

You should not have a set time per shot. People get sharked by other people, other tables... voices in their head. Total time is what really matters.

A chess clock should be tried. Divide the match time between both players. If it is rack your own you can let it run while racking. Matches will end early. Nobody wants to lose because they ran out of time, and they won't.
 
FLICKit said:
The ultimate solution is to use chess clocks (especially ones with an increment timer).

This gives the ability to set an increment time per shot.
And to give an extra X minutes, which can be used at the player's discretion.
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I like this idea as long as someone else is in charge of hitting it back and forth while your on a run.
 
Well, another alternative is to simply have a cut-off on matches, across the board.

Matches starting at 1pm, three hour limit.... 4pm rolls around, match play STOPS. Just like with SATs. "Pencils down!"

The trick would be determining who the winner is at that point. Even races, it's easy - whoever is ahead, or in the event of a tie, you could drop back one game and whoever was ahead LAST, wins.

With mixed races, it's trickier. Percentage of total needed to win, perhaps?

Now granted, in these cases, it would be easy for the player ahead at a given point to look at the clock, look at the score, figure he's in a good position and purposefully slow down. One would still need to have the option of requesting a ref to rule that a player be put on a timer.
 
This just happened to me Monday night!

I was playing in a local tournament and I'm playing as an A player so that means my race with a B player is 3-2. Anyway, so I play 3 B players in a row and each match goes hill hill. The first guy I play has no idea what he's doing and he's nervous so he keeps second guessing himself and taking a while. The second and third guys I play were taking frequent beer and bathroom breaks, as well as chats on their cell phones.

So I'm hill hill on my third match and there are two solids, two strips and the eight left on the table. We were having a safety battle because we had balls tied up on the rail and neither one of us had a good out. The TD comes over and says ok you guys have 30 seconds to shoot. It was my shot and the only thing I could think about was the clock. I got up to shoot and I made the ball but ended up hooking myself on the leave. I tried a kick and missed giving my opponent ball in hand. I was so pissed at the TD that I walked up to the 8 ball and slammed it in the pocket forfeiting my match.

I didn't think it was right to do that in the middle of a hill hill game (that was almost over BTW) and I was pissed that I got put on the clock for other peoples accumulative time consuming actions. That, and the fact that the TD routinely lets people call ahead and show up to the tournament a half hour late. Oh and the shot clock was only on my match, not on any others. I think if it's on one, it's on all. Put the clock on everyone.

I've decided that from now on if I get put on the clock in this tournament I will immediately forfeit my match. If the TD realizes that I'm doing this everytime he puts me on the clock, maybe he will be hesitant to put me on the clock because he'll know I'll just forfeit.

It's a $5 tournament that I play just to get some racks in with some of the better players in town. Bottom line is, I don't want to be rushed, I just want to play my game.
 
Complex13 said:
I was playing in a local tournament and I'm playing as an A player so that means my race with a B player is 3-2. Anyway, so I play 3 B players in a row and each match goes hill hill. The first guy I play has no idea what he's doing and he's nervous so he keeps second guessing himself and taking a while. The second and third guys I play were taking frequent beer and bathroom breaks, as well as chats on their cell phones.

So I'm hill hill on my third match and there are two solids, two strips and the eight left on the table. We were having a safety battle because we had balls tied up on the rail and neither one of us had a good out. The TD comes over and says ok you guys have 30 seconds to shoot. It was my shot and the only thing I could think about was the clock. I got up to shoot and I made the ball but ended up hooking myself on the leave. I tried a kick and missed giving my opponent ball in hand. I was so pissed at the TD that I walked up to the 8 ball and slammed it in the pocket forfeiting my match.

I didn't think it was right to do that in the middle of a hill hill game (that was almost over BTW) and I was pissed that I got put on the clock for other peoples accumulative time consuming actions. That, and the fact that the TD routinely lets people call ahead and show up to the tournament a half hour late. Oh and the shot clock was only on my match, not on any others. I think if it's on one, it's on all. Put the clock on everyone.

I've decided that from now on if I get put on the clock in this tournament I will immediately forfeit my match. If the TD realizes that I'm doing this everytime he puts me on the clock, maybe he will be hesitant to put me on the clock because he'll know I'll just forfeit.

It's a $5 tournament that I play just to get some racks in with some of the better players in town. Bottom line is, I don't want to be rushed, I just want to play my game.
Click to expand...


WOW! That is a really crappy situation. I can't imagine anyone all of a sudden going on the clock at hill hill. That doesn't seem right. IMHO, your TD should have taken note that the game was at hill hill and let it play out.

In this thread though, I'm more asking about a match that let's say is at 4-3 in a race 9 after an hour and a half.
 
pool4u said:
I like this idea as long as someone else is in charge of hitting it back and forth while your on a run.
Click to expand...

You should only have to hit it when you sit down or get up to shoot. There is no need to time each individual shot.
 
ScottW said:
Well, another alternative is to simply have a cut-off on matches, across the board.

Matches starting at 1pm, three hour limit.... 4pm rolls around, match play STOPS. Just like with SATs. "Pencils down!"

The trick would be determining who the winner is at that point. Even races, it's easy - whoever is ahead, or in the event of a tie, you could drop back one game and whoever was ahead LAST, wins.

With mixed races, it's trickier. Percentage of total needed to win, perhaps?

Now granted, in these cases, it would be easy for the player ahead at a given point to look at the clock, look at the score, figure he's in a good position and purposefully slow down. One would still need to have the option of requesting a ref to rule that a player be put on a timer.
Click to expand...
That's why you need a chess clock. The other guy can only run out his own time and lose. He can't run out your time.
 
Well, I'd like to say I think the proposed shot clock in this regional event is very generous. If you can't play 10 games in an hour, there's probably a little too much bs'ing going on.

When tournaments take too long, it puts pressure on the room owners. A tournament that is dragging can affect a room's revenue. Future events then are affected because the room owner is going to want to charge everyone more for green fees or maybe they'll think twice about having the event at all.

I say no shot clock. Just get rid of the slow players. Nobody likes them anyway.
 
JAM said:
I cannot tell you how many tournaments I have been to that were ruined because of slow players. There is one that comes to mind that was a very high-profile event, and almost everybody in the audience left. They just couldn't take it. It is not fair to the players who have to endure it either.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
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I'm all for a shot clock if a match is taking too long. Set up a rule before the tournament starts that if XXX games haven't been played in an hour then that match goes on a shot clock. Spectators don't want to sit and watch a guy look at every conceivable shot after every ball is made before he shoots again.

I won't mention the players name, but he won the US Open a couple of years ago and my friend and I couldn't take watching him in the finals wipe his entire cue down, wipe his hands, and powder up after every shot! We watched about 1/3 of the match and we got up and left our ring side seats. It was unbearable watching this guy take forever to shoot. He's a good player, but i'll never watch one of his matches again. His opponent actually had his eyes closed sitting in the chair he was so bored.

James
 
Wyoming Will said:
Well, I'd like to say I think the proposed shot clock in this regional event is very generous. If you can't play 10 games in an hour, there's probably a little too much bs'ing going on.

When tournaments take too long, it puts pressure on the room owners. A tournament that is dragging can affect a room's revenue. Future events then are affected because the room owner is going to want to charge everyone more for green fees or maybe they'll think twice about having the event at all.

I say no shot clock. Just get rid of the slow players. Nobody likes them anyway.
Click to expand...


This is more deadly than I think alot of players in regional events realized. It's a big reason I started the thread. With such limited opportunities to the players to play in events, the last thing you want is to piss off the room owners who are a major reason the events can even take place. Thanks for the input!
 
FLICKit said:
Extra attention needs to be taken to ensure that if a long safety battle ensues that the time or lack thereof is not the decider.
Click to expand...

This happened to me at a regional qulaifier. My opponent and I were not playing slow, but got into a lengthy safety battle. We were both kind of perlpexed when we were put on a shot clock. I think there are times when it is necessary, but this was not one of them.
 
I think any tour has the right to impose a shot clock if it is deemed necessary and helps the tournament run smoothly. All players should be made aware of what will cause a shot clock to be implemented and the TD's should be extra careful in when it is implemented and how. Watching the match for a few minutes before putting it on the clock is best. They can then determine whether the players are taking too much time.

My worst experience with a shot clock was at the World 14.1 Championships 2 years ago. My match that was scheduled for 10pm didn't start until 2:30am (the tournament was not run well that year) and we were immediately put on the clock even though it was the last match of the evening and it was also our final match of the tournament. It was put on the clock because CW didn't want to stay any longer than he had to. It had nothing to do with the players. At least I'm not bitter.
 
Chris_Lynch said:
I think any tour has the right to impose a shot clock if it is deemed necessary and helps the tournament run smoothly. All players should be made aware of what will cause a shot clock to be implemented and the TD's should be extra careful in when it is implemented and how. Watching the match for a few minutes before putting it on the clock is best. They can then determine whether the players are taking too much time.

My worst experience with a shot clock was at the World 14.1 Championships 2 years ago. My match that was scheduled for 10pm didn't start until 2:30am (the tournament was not run well that year) and we were immediately put on the clock even though it was the last match of the evening and it was also our final match of the tournament. It was put on the clock because CW didn't want to stay any longer than he had to. It had nothing to do with the players. At least I'm not bitter.
Click to expand...

WOW Chris, that is tough action. I would definitely say that is unfair. I think the watching of the match before putting the players on the shot clock is also a fair assessment. As someone pointed out, sometimes a long safety battle can skew the entire match's timing.

Thanks again to everyone to gave their 2 cents. I really appreciate it!:grin:
 
GG11 said:
WOW Chris, that is tough action. I would definitely say that is unfair. I think the watching of the match before putting the players on the shot clock is also a fair assessment. As someone pointed out, sometimes a long safety battle can skew the entire match's timing.

Thanks again to everyone to gave their 2 cents. I really appreciate it!:grin:
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I think the "long safety battle" is a poor argument. How many minutes does that really add to a match? That's a 1-pocket argument or a straight pool argument but not 9-ball. 9-ball is always fast. If the games are taking a long time, it's because the player is slow.
 
Wyoming Will said:
I think the "long safety battle" is a poor argument. How many minutes does that really add to a match? That's a 1-pocket argument or a straight pool argument but not 9-ball. 9-ball is always fast. If the games are taking a long time, it's because the player is slow.
Click to expand...

I've personally witnessed one game go on for 45 minutes. Most of it was safety after safety.

And I used to "clock" the games before making the shot clock decision. You hope for a game to complete in 10 minutes of less. If they start taking longer than that, I watch the players to see what's going on. Safeties and misses are one thing, but if the player(s) is(are) constantly walking around the table or getting down and up on the shot constantly, it's time for a stop watch.

Barbara
 
My usual routine with dealing with slow play. First, identify the slow players. I could tell by how the matches finished up every round or by the complaints of the other players. I would make note of the culprits and acutally start their matches early if possible. If one round was held up by a particularly slow match, the next match that went on that table would be two barn burning players. That would usually catch up the entire round.
Carried a shot clock for 20 years, NEVER USED IT>>>>>>>>>Robin
 
Barbara said:
I've personally witnessed one game go on for 45 minutes. Most of it was safety after safety.
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FOURTY-FIVE MINUTES? That's ridiculous. If they're shooting at an acceptable pace, that would mean there were nearly 100 innings. 9 pocketed shots and "most of it was safety after safety"? Even if the majority of the remaining innings are safeties, that still would leave dozens of missed. I'm sorry but for the sake of the field's sanity, I would have disqualified both of them and moved on. No tournament needs that.
 
That aint nothin'

Scotch doubles, 8-ball, race to 5. One match lasted over 2 1/2 hours. Beat that!
 
pool4u said:
Scotch doubles, 8-ball, race to 5. One match lasted over 2 1/2 hours. Beat that!
Click to expand...


Barbara says she was witness to a 45 minute game. I think you were beaten to a pulp.
 
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