Speed and Spin and the Cues That Make Them

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
How hard do you hit the cue ball if you want your spin to have maximum effect on the rail? Soft to get maximum "grab"? Warp 9 to get maximum RPMs? Some in between optimum g-spot?

What kind of stick/tip combination works best for spin? A high-tech, low squirt cue with a thin layered tip? A fat fiberglass WalMart special? A custom compromise?

Well, you'll be happy to know that I've been working diligently to bring you the definitive answers, testing all the above mentioned cues and lots more, including all kinds of house cues on old and new cloth, sticky and slick as ice. I've made it a hobby over the years and kept it up right up to today (I tried again this afternoon here on my own table).

And the definitive answer seems very likely to be: it doesn't matter. No matter how hard I hit the shots or with what kind of cue or tip, if I hit the cue ball with the same tip offset on the same table I just keep getting the same angle off the rail - time and time (and time) again.

Just thought you'd want to be the first to know you can stop worrying about that.

pj
chgo
 
How hard do you hit the cue ball if you want your spin to have maximum effect on the rail? Soft to get maximum "grab"? Warp 9 to get maximum RPMs? Some in between optimum g-spot?
Click to expand...
would that not depend on where you want the cb to go?
What kind of stick/tip combination works best for spin? A high-tech, low squirt cue with a thin layered tip? A fat fiberglass WalMart special? A custom compromise?
Click to expand...
more in the shaftwood.

And the definitive answer seems very likely to be: it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
then i guess you play with the cheap walmart cue to save some money, yes?
all these cues and you still haven't found the magic cuw? :)
 
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This is a question with no right or wrong answer since you are asking how each individual does it and what do they use.

I like and use a very hard tip. I find that I get more spin by shooting very soft as close to the edge as possible at either 3 or 9 o'clock with a very long follow thru. If I hit the CB hard the CB angle of the rail is not as wide. I use the shaft that comes with the cue. Shooting straight into a side rail from the spot into the second diamond shooting with extreme english and softly I will make the CB rebound 3 diamonds (the 1st diamond past the side pocket). This is with about 3 tips from the center. 1 tip is one diamond and 2 tips is into the center pocket or 2 diamonds. Doesn't matter what cue I use all of my cues are made by top quality makers: Jensen, Layani, Gilbert, Chudy, SW, Weston (both Perry and Skip), Gina, Lambros, CK, Bender, and Schon (Runde Era).
 
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If you want spin to take, shooting hard will defeat the purpose. Hard will not allow the spin to take off the rail. Soft, however, will allow the maximum grab but too soft will go nowhere as well :) Just under medium speed with maximum spin gets me the best "spin effect" results...

Inside spin on a side pocket shot to go the opposite way off the rail after pocketing the ball is a great test for this. hard will get you nowhere. Too soft will go nowhere. Medium will turn that rebound angle unnaturally and look like magic :)

Soft tip will spin more than hard. Thats why fellas like Reyes use elk masters.
 
TheBook said:
This is a question with no right or wrong answer since you are asking how each individual does it and what do they use.

I like and use a very hard tip. I find that I get more spin by shooting very soft as close to the edge as possible at either 3 or 9 o'clock with a very long follow thru. If I hit the CB hard the CB angle of the rail is not as wide. I use the shaft that comes with the cue. Shooting straight into a side rail from the spot into the second diamond shooting with extreme english and softly I will make the CB rebound 3 diamonds (the 1st diamond past the side pocket). This is with about 3 tips from the center. 1 tip is one diamond and 2 tips is into the center pocket or 2 diamonds. Doesn't matter what cue I use all of my cues are made by top quality makers: Jensen, Layani, Gilbert, Chudy, SW, Weston (both Perry and Skip), Gina, Lambros, CK, Bender, and Schon (Runde Era).
Click to expand...
Would it surprise you to know you can get the same effect with a warped Dufferin one-piece (with a good, well chalked tip)?

pj
chgo
 
CaptiveBred said:
If you want spin to take, shooting hard will defeat the purpose. Hard will not allow the spin to take off the rail. Soft, however, will allow the maximum grab but too soft will go nowhere as well :) Just under medium speed with maximum spin gets me the best "spin effect" results...

Inside spin on a side pocket shot to go the opposite way off the rail after pocketing the ball is a great test for this. hard will get you nowhere. Too soft will go nowhere. Medium will turn that rebound angle unnaturally and look like magic :)

Soft tip will spin more than hard. Thats why fellas like Reyes use elk masters.
Click to expand...
I haven't spent much time testing really hard shots because they're too hard to control for variables - but anything from as soft as possible all the way up to "firm" gives the same results for me.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How hard do you hit the cue ball if you want your spin to have maximum effect on the rail? Soft to get maximum "grab"? Warp 9 to get maximum RPMs? Some in between optimum g-spot?

What kind of stick/tip combination works best for spin? A high-tech, low squirt cue with a thin layered tip? A fat fiberglass WalMart special? A custom compromise?

Well, you'll be happy to know that I've been working diligently to bring you the definitive answers, testing all the above mentioned cues and lots more, including all kinds of house cues on old and new cloth, sticky and slick as ice. I've made it a hobby over the years and kept it up right up to today (I tried again this afternoon here on my own table).

And the definitive answer seems very likely to be: it doesn't matter. No matter how hard I hit the shots or with what kind of cue or tip, if I hit the cue ball with the same tip offset on the same table I just keep getting the same angle off the rail - time and time (and time) again.

Just thought you'd want to be the first to know you can stop worrying about that.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick, have you tried the OB1 shaft? It appears that it is most unique giving additional spin to the cue ball whether it be draw, side spin or a combination of the two. It could be my imagination but the effective spin and draw seems to be greater with this shaft.

The shaft doesn't squirt much but it does curve the cue ball and so you have to pay special attention to the swerve when using side spin. The draw seems impressive but that is just my opinion.

JoeyA
 
Here is one for you to test Pat:

The question. Does a cue stick or tip place unwanted english on the cb when one is attempting to hit center ball?

The tests

Draw a line slightly off center on the center of the table (so the line does not interfere with ball travel)

Test A
Shoot the cue to the head rail and have it return to the cue tip (no spin on CB).
Shot 1 from the foot spot center ball
Shot 2 from the foot spot one tip below center ball (to magnify any spin).

Shoot each shot five times and note the off line return. The cue?s ability is the average of the amount of off line return to the foot spot.

After several attempts it is not known if the rail is consistently returning the ball or adding some spin.

Test B

Line up three balls on the long rail center of the table.
Set one ball an inch off the rail
Set one ball on the first diamond off the head rail
Set the cue ball just in front of the head spot.

Shoot the cue to hit a perfect combination. If there is any side spin the English is transferred as an off angle by the first ball hit.

Cue 1 18 oz Mace cue and a very hard tip (whatever he put on it) produces best results for both tests.

Cue 2 20.5 oz Mottey with Predator Z2 shaft and their tip produces some English consistently

Cue 3 Meucci 20.5 oz with LePro tip produces some English consistently

Cue 4 18 oz Dufferin snooker cue (10mm tip) with LePro tip. Softest hit but produces less English than cues 2 or 3.

Cue 5 18 oz Mali with unknown relatively hard tip produces less English than cues 2 or 3 consistently

So the Mace and the Mali with hard tips produce the least off center English when one is attempting a true center ball hit. The Dufferin is ranked as number 3 for accuracy. I have no idea why. Perhaps the shaft is slightly more rigid (it is an old cue).

However the two cues with the poorest performance (and the most expensive ones) were both about 20.5 oz so maybe the weight has some effect.

Seems that softer tips tend to grab in one or another place to produce unwanted English. However, if one wants English then the softer tips are preferred. Perhaps one needs two shooting cues ??? Apparently it is the tip not the weight that leads to unwanted English.

All tips were in good condition and the shape of a dime.

The test can be improved with the use of a mechanical bridge replacing the hand bridge. Similar results are obtained.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
I haven't spent much time testing really hard shots because they're too hard to control for variables - but anything from as soft as possible all the way up to "firm" gives the same results for me.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, do you think different tips can create different amounts of swerve using the same shaft/cue etc?
JoeyA
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How hard do you hit the cue ball if you want your spin to have maximum effect on the rail? Soft to get maximum "grab"? Warp 9 to get maximum RPMs? Some in between optimum g-spot?

What kind of stick/tip combination works best for spin? A high-tech, low squirt cue with a thin layered tip? A fat fiberglass WalMart special? A custom compromise?

Well, you'll be happy to know that I've been working diligently to bring you the definitive answers, testing all the above mentioned cues and lots more, including all kinds of house cues on old and new cloth, sticky and slick as ice. I've made it a hobby over the years and kept it up right up to today (I tried again this afternoon here on my own table).

And the definitive answer seems very likely to be: it doesn't matter. No matter how hard I hit the shots or with what kind of cue or tip, if I hit the cue ball with the same tip offset on the same table I just keep getting the same angle off the rail - time and time (and time) again.

Just thought you'd want to be the first to know you can stop worrying about that.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

If you can see a difference, then maybe you should spend more time working on your stroke.
 
JoeW said:
Here is one for you to test Pat:

The question. Does a cue stick or tip place unwanted english on the cb when one is attempting to hit center ball?

The tests

Draw a line slightly off center on the center of the table (so the line does not interfere with ball travel)

Test A
Shoot the cue to the head rail and have it return to the cue tip (no spin on CB).
Shot 1 from the foot spot center ball
Shot 2 from the foot spot one tip below center ball (to magnify any spin).

Shoot each shot five times and note the off line return. The cue?s ability is the average of the amount of off line return to the foot spot.

After several attempts it is not known if the rail is consistently returning the ball or adding some spin.

Test B

Line up three balls on the long rail center of the table.
Set one ball an inch off the rail
Set one ball on the first diamond off the head rail
Set the cue ball just in front of the head spot.

Shoot the cue to hit a perfect combination. If there is any side spin the English is transferred as an off angle by the first ball hit.

Cue 1 18 oz Mace cue and a very hard tip (whatever he put on it) produces best results for both tests.

Cue 2 20.5 oz Mottey with Predator Z2 shaft and their tip produces some English consistently

Cue 3 Meucci 20.5 oz with LePro tip produces some English consistently

Cue 4 18 oz Dufferin snooker cue (10mm tip) with LePro tip. Softest hit but produces less English than cues 2 or 3.

Cue 5 18 oz Mali with unknown relatively hard tip produces less English than cues 2 or 3 consistently

So the Mace and the Mali with hard tips produce the least off center English when one is attempting a true center ball hit. The Dufferin is ranked as number 3 for accuracy. I have no idea why. Perhaps the shaft is slightly more rigid (it is an old cue).

However the two cues with the poorest performance (and the most expensive ones) were both about 20.5 oz so maybe the weight has some effect.

Seems that softer tips tend to grab in one or another place to produce unwanted English. However, if one wants English then the softer tips are preferred. Perhaps one needs two shooting cues ??? Apparently it is the tip not the weight that leads to unwanted English.

All tips were in good condition and the shape of a dime.

The test can be improved with the use of a mechanical bridge replacing the hand bridge. Similar results are obtained.
Click to expand...
???

What makes you think these results are attributable to the tips and not to the shooter?

pj
chgo
 
Joey:
... do you think different tips can create different amounts of swerve using the same shaft/cue etc?
Click to expand...

...and the same tip condition/chalking/placement, butt elevation, table/ball/weather conditions, stroke, etc., right? In other words, "all else being equal"?

I think a softer tip might produce more swerve for the same stroke only because less force would be transmitted so the shot would be slower, giving more opportunity for swerve to "work".

Otherwise, I don't think there should be a difference.

pj
chgo
 
If you can see a difference, then maybe you should spend more time working on your stroke.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that's true of everybody (including you), but I bet I could show that your stroke doesn't make a difference either.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
...and the same tip condition/chalking/placement, butt elevation, table/ball/weather conditions, stroke, etc., right? In other words, "all else being equal"?

I think a softer tip might produce more swerve for the same stroke only because less force would be transmitted so the shot would be slower, giving more opportunity for swerve to "work".

Otherwise, I don't think there should be a difference.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

So to eliminate swerve, I should use a hard tip and shoot all shots at 25 mph or better. :)

Thanks for the thoughts.
JoeyA
 
PJ Said, "What makes you think these results are attributable to the tips and not to the shooter?"

A better test would be to have several shooters. They were not available. If it is the shooter it would be expected that his most expensive cues would have performed better to justify the expense. In addition, this shooter prefers "soft" tips and found the opposite to be true with regard to consistency of hit. The cue with the least reliability is the cue this shooter prefers and uses the most.

It could be the shooter but many things suggest it is the cue and or tip. At this point the tip is suspected as the problem area. A more definitive study is needed. Let me see what I can do.

BTW there are many aalternative explanations and all would have to be eliminated:

inconsistent rails.
different shapes on tips
different hardness for each individual tip
shooter bias
weight of cue
balance of cue
test- retest problems
priority effects (which stick is tested first last etc)
measurement error

and the list goes on.

At this point and without a more rigorous test it can by hypothesized that tip hardness may be a factor in the generation of unwanted English.
 
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I use two shafts for my playing cue. Both are 13mm. Both weigh the exact same, and are made the exact same. I use one of them with a medium tip for use on a table with 860 cloth. I use the other shaft outfitted with a hard tip for use on slower tables, to counteract the loss in energy due to the softer tip. This way, I don't change my speed or my stroke when I play on different tables.

With your theory, Pat, this wouldn't work, but it does.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How hard do you hit the cue ball if you want your spin to have maximum effect on the rail? Soft to get maximum "grab"? Warp 9 to get maximum RPMs? Some in between optimum g-spot?

What kind of stick/tip combination works best for spin? A high-tech, low squirt cue with a thin layered tip? A fat fiberglass WalMart special? A custom compromise?

Well, you'll be happy to know that I've been working diligently to bring you the definitive answers, testing all the above mentioned cues and lots more, including all kinds of house cues on old and new cloth, sticky and slick as ice. I've made it a hobby over the years and kept it up right up to today (I tried again this afternoon here on my own table).

And the definitive answer seems very likely to be: it doesn't matter. No matter how hard I hit the shots or with what kind of cue or tip, if I hit the cue ball with the same tip offset on the same table I just keep getting the same angle off the rail - time and time (and time) again.

Just thought you'd want to be the first to know you can stop worrying about that.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Can you show us the shot you're talking about? If you're saying that it applies for all shots, no matter what, I think you're on glue.
 
JoeW said:
A better test would be to have several shooters.

.....


BTW there are many aalternative explanations and all would have to be eliminated:

inconsistent rails.
different shapes on tips
different hardness for each individual tip
shooter bias
weight of cue
balance of cue
test- retest problems
priority effects (which stick is tested first last etc)
measurement error

and the list goes on.
Click to expand...

The best test would be to have a mechanical device stroke the cue. That is the only way to ensure a consistent stroke is applied, humans simply cannot repeat like a machine.

Several of your items listed are parameters of the cue, the device-under-test, so they can stay (they MUST stay, and variances SHOULD be tested). The rail issue does not apply, and two others are simply human biases that the stroking machine would eliminate. Error is always present and you just need to deal with it, that is one of the foundations of scientific method.

Dave, working on a stroking machine ... slowly but surely
 
Speed and stroke are very important, IMHO it really isnt nessasary to strike the cue ball "Hard" to apply spin effectively. Sure over a long ditance if you want to stop the cue ball and you hit center ball, or if you need to shorten the angle on a bank then yes you must strike the cue ball harder than you normaly would.

When Im trying to help someone with speed, I suggest first and foremost Roll the balls in the hole, only hit the shots hard enough to effectively pocket the ball. This is very hard to do if you like banging balls, but if you can maintain enough will power and play the shots with less speed but still try the same position shots likely you will find, your more acurate, and you will generate more than enough spin to move the cue around. The cue really isnt that important if its straight, the right balance and weight that you feel confortable with.

The tip, If you generaly shoot hard you will likely prefere a hard tip, if you generaly shoot easy, the odds are a softer tip will suit you better and allow you to play the same postion the other guy does that shoots hard.

Should you shoot Soft? Medium? or Hard? If your begginer I suggest shoot
at softer speeds untill you build a stroke and understand how applied english works, then as you progress you will find at times you must shoot harder to make some shots work properly, or when you have to create an angle for position.



SPINDOKTOR
 
Can you show us the shot you're talking about? If you're saying that it applies for all shots, no matter what, I think you're on glue.
Click to expand...

Sure. Usually I do this, using a striped ball as the cue ball with the stripe aligned vertically along the shot line to use as a tip offset guide. I hit the ball right on the edge of the stripe, on the equator, checking the chalkmark after each shot and rejecting any that aren't right on the line. I also look to be sure the ball hits the target and reject any that don't, and I watch to be sure there's no visible swerve indicating an off-equator hit that changes the spin/speed ratio (swerve is the reason I don't like to do this test the long way). I hit shots left and right and from both sides, using a blocker like the side of a rack on the center-table line to accurately measure hits that can be compared.

Not the Bureau of Weights and Standards, but enough to get meaningful results from a do-it-anywhere test over a period of time.

CueTable Help



The amount of effect varies with the condition of the cloth and balls, but the comparative results don't change. When done carefully, with attention to eliminating "noise", the outcome is remarkably consistent across tables, speeds, sticks and tips (although I don't use bad tips).

I got the diagrammed results this weekend on my home table with new Granito using clean Centennials, so I'd expect to see more effect under most other conditions - but not a different test outcome.

pj
chgo
 
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