speed

[evergruven]

not a question per se, but something I'd like to get more insight on from instructors/anyone with a few pennies
so tonight I'm playing 8-ball with a pal, having a good time, and I took particular notice about ball speed
we're playing on pretty clean, level equipment, so I felt fine rolling balls- in fact, I enjoyed it
it worked well and felt good, but then when I had to hit with more speed, it was a little uncomfortable
not a lot, but as I mentioned, enough to notice.

I've seen it recommended to play in a way that encourages hitting balls with a similar stroke/pace
that kind of makes sense, to seemingly eliminate variables and make it easier to catch the rhythm
but I'm admittedly also kind of dubious about the idea..wondering what you all think about it?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Since a rail interferes with a perfectly level cue on nearly all shots, shots are struck with slightly elevated cues. Hit a shot harder to get more speed and you can get unwanted spin, micro-jump shots, etc. particularly if your cue is extra-elevated.

If you are in trouble with a bit more than regular speed, you may be gripping too hard, hitting too hard, etc. on regular strokes.

Does that help? If not, happy to share some more.

 

[bbb]

i am not an instructor
and i am also not clear on what you are asking
your first paragraph suggests to me when you had to hit harder you were more "unconfortable"
you lose some accuracy when hitting harder
your second paragraph
i think players have a "happy speed" that they tend to hit most shots with
and vary it only when necessary
still not sure what you are looking for in your second paragraph

 

[3kushn]

i think players have a "happy speed" that they tend to hit most shots with
and vary it only when necessary
still not sure what you are looking for in your second paragraph

I took it differently. Keeping the same tempo or acceleration on every shot
If you need more power then lengthen the stroke. Soft shots.. shorten it up.
I thought he was asking if this makes sense.
I've struggled in my mind with the concept too.
I think I might be closer after being lock down and developing a decent pause.
Maybe not

 

[FranCrimi]

It's not unusual for amateur players to prefer rolling the cue ball. You feel a certain sense of control when you roll the ball. When you hit balls with speed, you will lose some of that sense of control and it's uncomfortable, which is why you have to practice it. Letting your stroke out requires a huge amount of trust. If you try to control your stroke when you're shooting with speed, you'll get the opposite effect. It's well-practiced in martial arts. It's the art of letting go of control to get your desired result.

But if you want to be a strong player, you're going to have to know how to do both.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Many coaches teach playing a 'standard' speed to take some variables out. Some teach having a few gears (1tbl, 2tbl, 3tbl for example).
There are many benefits to this...
1. The most obvious benefit is that you are performing the same stroke at the same speed (or intend to anyway) which your body gets better at over time.
2. Then you have position considerations which get more precise once you know how many diamonds your cue ball will travel with your soft, med, or full stroke for example.
3. One often overlooked benefit to a consistent playing speed is aiming with spin. We know that when we use side spin, the cue ball is deflected on contact and then, since we are almost never dead level, it curves back towards the line of aim as it rolls. Well, the amount of deflection, and especially the amount of curve back, are both affected by speed.

Using a standard speed or having a few go-to strokes is like having different clubs in the bag and if you are between clubs you have the option of adding a little or taking a little off from one of your trained set points. This is generally preferred (esp under pressure or when nervous) to a full feel spectrum of strokes at one's disposal with no set standards which can result in amazing nights when you're 'on' and horrendous ones when you aren't and miss position by 2 feet all day.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Letting your stroke out requires a huge amount of trust. If you try to control your stroke when you're shooting with speed, you'll get the opposite effect. It's well-practiced in martial arts. It's the art of letting go of control to get your desired result.

This is fantastic. Achieving precise control by giving up control is a great way to put it and it is a concept present in many sports not just martial arts. The ones you hear it mentioned the most in is basketball shooting and golf (gravity swings especially).

 

[evergruven]

It's not unusual for amateur players to prefer rolling the cue ball. You feel a certain sense of control when you roll the ball. When you hit balls with speed, you will lose some of that sense of control and it's uncomfortable, which is why you have to practice it. Letting your stroke out requires a huge amount of trust. If you try to control your stroke when you're shooting with speed, you'll get the opposite effect. It's well-practiced in martial arts. It's the art of letting go of control to get your desired result.

But if you want to be a strong player, you're going to have to know how to do both.

hey fran, thanks for the shout- I think a lot of this makes sense to me
rolling the ball does make me feel like I'm shooting straight, and that I understand well how the balls react
but you're right- that's only one way, and I've learned that at some point, you're going to have to *hit* the ball
I think I got so comfy in my success rolling the ball, that when I needed to stroke one, it was kind of shocking
but it didn't need to be..I think I just failed to be mentally prepared for the shot, I indirectly psyched myself out

I'm going to have to think more about "the art of letting go," but I like the idea-
a shot that comes to mind is drawing out one rail-
there, you can really let your stroke out, but also trust that the cb doesn't have to move much
that's one shot I feel comfy letting go on, but I will surely have to work on others, as y'all suggested

Using a standard speed or having a few go-to strokes is like having different clubs in the bag and if you are between clubs you have the option of adding a little or taking a little off from one of your trained set points. This is generally preferred (esp under pressure or when nervous) to a full feel spectrum of strokes at one's disposal with no set standards which can result in amazing nights when you're 'on' and horrendous ones when you aren't and miss position by 2 feet all day.

thanks all for the replies-

 

[3kushn]

This is fantastic. Achieving precise control by giving up control is a great way to put it and it is a concept present in many sports not just martial arts. The ones you hear it mentioned the most in is basketball shooting and golf (gravity swings especially).

What I discovered when playing around with throwing the cue. Or lets say, the lightest grip possible.

Fun and learned a lot.

Just playing around with stuff.
Too old to achieve stardom.
Not too old to experiment and discover.

 

[Ratta]

Imo "rolling the cb" is just too dangerous- and super tough, too. Every table- also a brand new table can have tiny *issues". So try to learn to use pocket speed whenever you re able to. Speed 2,5 to 3 (so a cueball would roll 2,5 or 3 table lenghts) sounds fast....but it isn t for sure With this speed you don t have to matter about if a table rolls off a bit- also a reason strong players use for example super often "stun/follow or "Stun run through" shots-- they avoid rolling a shot whenever possible.
If you re able to use just this speed for example perfectly....you re able to runout (almost) every table

The topic "trust", when Fran came out with it, ist the ultimate goal- to let go. Once you have this deep inside you..... you ve mastered something, where some people will never get to that point.

 

[FranCrimi]

Imo "rolling the cb" is just too dangerous- and super tough, too. Every table- also a brand new table can have tiny *issues". So try to learn to use pocket speed whenever you re able to. Speed 2,5 to 3 (so a cueball would roll 2,5 or 3 table lenghts) sounds fast....but it isn t for sure With this speed you don t have to matter about if a table rolls off a bit- also a reason strong players use for example super often "stun/follow or "Stun run through" shots-- they avoid rolling a shot whenever possible.
If you re able to use just this speed for example perfectly....you re able to runout (almost) every table

The topic "trust", when Fran came out with it, ist the ultimate goal- to let go. Once you have this deep inside you..... you ve mastered something, where some people will never get to that point.

Well stated Ratta!

I first learned about trust when I used to date a professional bowler. He had a ball drilled for me that fit so snugly that I had trouble releasing it on the lane. It was scary, because it became a dangerou situations for me --- I'd go flying out on to the lane with the ball still in my hand --- so I thought I'd have to quit. Then he taught me that 'trust is a must' in sports. He said in my effort to control the release, I was tightening up and actually resisting the release. It took some time, but I eventually learned that I could get out of that snug ball if I just relaxed my hand and trusted it.

 

[dquarasr]

I used to bowl. I hung around the 180-190 mark. I read Earl Anthony’s “Championship Bowling.” He described how to create relaxed grip while maintaining strength in the swing. I tried it and immediately went up to well over 200. No, I never got to those 220-230 averages the crank players can do as I was a smooth stroker but when I had conditions where I didn’t need to overpower the oil pattern, I could shoot pretty well including a 245-259 804 series. I also had found a pro shop who could drill a ball as Fran described.

Pool stroke is not that dissimilar. (Obligatory disclaimer: not an instructor.)

 

[Ratta]

Well stated Ratta!

I first learned about trust when I used to date a professional bowler. He had a ball drilled for me that fit so snugly that I had trouble releasing it on the lane. It was scary, because it became a dangerou situations for me --- I'd go flying out on to the lane with the ball still in my hand --- so I thought I'd have to quit. Then he taught me that 'trust is a must' in sports. He said in my effort to control the release, I was tightening up and actually resisting the release. It took some time, but I eventually learned that I could get out of that snug ball if I just relaxed my hand and trusted it.

Biggest problem of some of my "ball princes and princesses"

 

[FranCrimi]

I used to bowl. I hung around the 180-190 mark. I read Earl Anthony’s “Championship Bowling.” He described how to create relaxed grip while maintaining strength in the swing. I tried it and immediately went up to well over 200. No, I never got to those 220-230 averages the crank players can do as I was a smooth stroker but when I had conditions where I didn’t need to overpower the oil pattern, I could shoot pretty well including a 245-259 804 series. I also had found a pro shop who could drill a ball as Fran described.

Pool stroke is not that dissimilar. (Obligatory disclaimer: not an instructor.)

Being a bowler, then you would probably like this story --- To teach me how to release the ball, he took me to visit his friend who was starting to make a name for himself on tour --- Mark Roth. I sat behind them at Rainbow Lanes when it was closed early in the morning and watched them practice. When I saw the size and shape of Mark's thumb and how he released the ball, I realized that my problem was all fear-based. If Roth could get out of the ball like that, I certainly could.

 

[dquarasr]

Being a bowler, then you would probably like this story --- To teach me how to release the ball, he took me to visit his friend who was starting to make a name for himself on tour --- Mark Roth. I sat behind them at Rainbow Lanes when it was closed early in the morning and watched them practice. When I saw the size and shape of Mark's thumb and how he released the ball, I realized that my problem was all fear-based. If Roth could get out of the ball like that, I certainly could.

Indeed, a legend!

I dunno what happened to my post. I missed typing “300”, the last game of my 804 series. Relating to sports performance, after 504 my first two games, i was so in “the zone” i told my doubles partner i had 800 in the wood, and i was going to throw a 300. And i did. I just knew i would. Came close to or was in the zone before and after that tournament, but not for three full games.

Still trying to achieve the zone in pool. I’ve come close (defining it as playing to my highest potential while not really thinking about it), but only for a rack or two. And at my skill level, it really just means i might sniff at a B&R where i realize afterwards I wasn’t really thinking about HOW to execute but rather WHAT to execute.

 

[evergruven]

a little update-
played tonight, and tho I was winning most of the games, I was still missing some shots, and just not feeling great about my game
my og curiosity/this thread popped into my head- inspired, I decided to challenge myself, trust my stroke more and hit some rails
I was surprised at how quickly I felt better about my game. I still missed a few, but in general, I felt more confident shooting firmly
tho I was unsure at times how the balls would react to my hits, I felt assured that if I'd go down, I'd go down swinging- not rolling
rolling balls has a time and place, but it's neat to feel like I can trust myself a little more..also I think I can learn a lot by hitting the ball
thanks again to all you poolers/instructors- I 'preciate it.

 

[FranCrimi]

Indeed, a legend!

I dunno what happened to my post. I missed typing “300”, the last game of my 804 series. Relating to sports performance, after 504 my first two games, i was so in “the zone” i told my doubles partner i had 800 in the wood, and i was going to throw a 300. And i did. I just knew i would. Came close to or was in the zone before and after that tournament, but not for three full games.

Still trying to achieve the zone in pool. I’ve come close (defining it as playing to my highest potential while not really thinking about it), but only for a rack or two. And at my skill level, it really just means i might sniff at a B&R where i realize afterwards I wasn’t really thinking about HOW to execute but rather WHAT to execute.

I just wanted to say that what you accomplished in bowling is rare and amazing! Congratulations for that great feat!

 

[dquarasr]

I just wanted to say that what you accomplished in bowling is rare and amazing! Congratulations for that great feat!

Thanks. I did it in 1994 and that year there were around 27,000 ABC-sanctioned 300 games and 4,500 800 series. Sounds like a lot but that must be among many dozens of millions of games bowled that year.

 

[BC21]

It's not unusual for amateur players to prefer rolling the cue ball. You feel a certain sense of control when you roll the ball. When you hit balls with speed, you will lose some of that sense of control and it's uncomfortable, which is why you have to practice it. Letting your stroke out requires a huge amount of trust. If you try to control your stroke when you're shooting with speed, you'll get the opposite effect. It's well-practiced in martial arts. It's the art of letting go of control to get your desired result.

But if you want to be a strong player, you're going to have to know how to do both.

Well said Fran. A lot of players grip the cue tighter when shooting firm, which uses muscles in the hand that are typically not used when shooting soft or normal speed. The added muscle tension in the grip hand causes the tip of the cue to move off line.

The thing is, it's the cue that strikes the cb, not the stroke hand/arm. I find it helpful to think of stroking faster, not harder, keeping in mind that the cue stick does the work of striking the cb, and all I have to do is swing it at the desired speed and angle without trying to control the hit with my grip hand.