Spliced or floating points

[merylane]

willie i could tell with my eyes closed just by the way the but flexed. and your right that doesnt mean it would matter either one could be the best cue i ever felt?

 

[classiccues]

Here are my posts Joe, Posts #3 and #7 of this thread. Below I was just referring to the forearm without the handle so there isn't a forearm/handle surface contact yet. The handle at this point DOES NOT exist. As you can see too, I never mentioned "sides" when I wrote about "floating points".

QUOTE]

Sides or contact surfaces. I said sides. My question still pertains to where do you come up with sides, er..contact surfaces, which is why I asked this question: Or Joe Golds Shieshido design? IMHO its one edge, period. If you inlay a floating circle does it still have 2 sides, and 1 bottom? You said floating points had only 3 contact surfaces. I am asking how is this possible?
IMHO its better to say it contacts the bottom and the perimeter of the shape of the floating point. It maybe many sided dependant uopn the design.
Joe

 

[WilleeCue]

willie i could tell with my eyes closed just by the way the but flexed. and your right that doesnt mean it would matter either one could be the best cue i ever felt?

If you can feel the butt flex when stroking a ball then you are one of one thousand that can.
Most players are not that sensitive to the feedback of a cue.
You must be an above avarage player to have developed that sensitivity.
No money games with you , my friend. <grin>

 

[bandido]

Here are my posts Joe, Posts #3 and #7 of this thread. Below I was just referring to the forearm without the handle so there isn't a forearm/handle surface contact yet. The handle at this point DOES NOT exist. As you can see too, I never mentioned "sides" when I wrote about "floating points".

QUOTE]

Sides or contact surfaces. I said sides. My question still pertains to where do you come up with sides, er..contact surfaces, which is why I asked this question: Or Joe Golds Shieshido design? IMHO its one edge, period. If you inlay a floating circle does it still have 2 sides, and 1 bottom? You said floating points had only 3 contact surfaces. I am asking how is this possible?
IMHO its better to say it contacts the bottom and the perimeter of the shape of the floating point. It maybe many sided dependant uopn the design.
Joe

Joe, you need to show me where I mentioned number of sides or contact surfaces on floating points. You're kinda of hang up on my saying or indicating number of sides for a floating point when the only time that I mentioned sides or contact surfaces are when I was referring to half-spliced or landed points!

Don't you see my cues in the cue gallery? How can somebody who makes multi-profile floating inlayed points mention a specific number of sides for a floating point? Why do you keep hounding me about floating points when my only description given about them is that they don't have any intimate contact with the forearm/handle or ring.

Edwin Reyes

 

[bandido]

edwin i would have to dissagree because your not affecting the weekest link! do you really think if you built 2 cues the same but put big inlays in one it would be stronger? not to mention no one said anything about strength.

Ok, I see what you're referring to, the A-joint area. 30 years back your statement that a full-splice, because of the added strength contributed by the prongs, is stronger than a tenon and pocket jointing method could be a 100% true. But with the advent of better tenon and pocket jointing method and improved adhesives the strength issue may be a toss up.

You did mention though in one of your post that you're able to tell by the vibration of the forearm if you like a cue.
Forearm.....hmmm, doesn't inlaying denser material or softer (as in Holly into ebony) affect the attenuation of the forearm? Decoration?
Edwin Reyes

 

[cueman]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that flat bottom inlaid floating points laid in .180" deep do stiffen the forearm almost as much as wood V-points do. Provided the inlays are out of a hard material like Ivory or imitation stone and at least 1/2" wide at the widest point. Birdseye forearms inlaid with stiffer materials does change the hit slightly. So the inlays do more than just look pretty when laid in deep like I do them. Most CNC inlay guys try to lay them in 1/8" deep instead of 3/16" and it does not effect their cues as much as mine.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com

 

[bandido]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that flat bottom inlaid floating points laid in .180" deep do stiffen the forearm almost as much as wood V-points do. Provided the inlays are out of a hard material like Ivory or imitation stone and at least 1/2" wide at the widest point. Birdseye forearms inlaid with stiffer materials does change the hit slightly. So the inlays do more than just look pretty when laid in deep like I do them. Most CNC inlay guys try to lay them in 1/8" deep instead of 3/16" and it does not effect their cues as much as mine.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com

You are very right Chris and it's just common sense. Take a "structural section of a specific dimension"and replace part of it with a denser stronger material and you'll increase its structural strength. Let's magnify this for better understanding. if someone will make 2 concrete posts of the same dimension from the same batch of cement mix, one is totally made out of the mix and the second one has rebars added. Which of these 2 posts is stronger?
Edwin Reyes

 

[cueman]

You are very right Chris and it's just common sense. Take a "structural section of a specific dimension"and replace part of it with a denser stronger material and you'll increase its structural strength. Let's magnify this for better understanding. if someone will make 2 concrete posts of the same dimension from the same batch of cement mix, one is totally made out of the mix and the second one has rebars added. Which of these 2 posts is stronger?
Edwin Reyes

Thanks for agreeing openly with me Edwin. I have heard the myth "Inlaid points don't effect the hit" repeated as fact so much that I felt I had to put my two cents in.
Chris

 

[bandido]

Thanks for agreeing openly with me Edwin. I have heard the myth "Inlaid points don't effect the hit" repeated as fact so much that I felt I had to put my two cents in.
Chris

I have no qualms in voicing out my opinion in public, if it's right it's right, if it's wrong I learn and apologize in public if needed. It really doesn't matter to me who made the post that I'm replying to because only the contents matter in an internet forum.
Edwin Reyes<--You're welcome Chris!

 

[Canadian cue]

halfsplice vs fullsplice

Now I know that I don't have near the experience Cueman or Bandido have in these maters but I would still like to express my opinion if I may.
The way I see it there is no doubt that structurly the full splice is a better joint . The full splice has two major things going for it ,one is it has much greater surface area making it stronger, and two there is no end grain rubbing endgrain which leads to better resonating qualities. So the next logical question would be why don't all cue makers use this style of joint?
- it's much more time consuming and more difficult to accomplish
- it wastes more material
- it's harder to end up with even points(what do you think spear points are for)

Now as a consumer I might ask why would I buy a halfsplice, well in it's defense I will offer you these reasons:
-you are going to have to wait a long time and pay a big premium for a NICE fullsplice cue
-because you have so many cue makers building half splice or cored cues you have much greater variety and better value for your dollar
-from what I have seen you do not have as many options in the way of how your cue will look, how long and how many points, as well as rings at the "a" joint
-the points in a half splice usually run further up the cue which I believe give you a stiffer hit if that is your preferance
To some up I think that although theoretically speaking the full splice is superior, the difference is quite negligible. With a well designed "a" joint and today's adhesives the half splice is still a good buy and I don't think It should deture any body from buying this type of cue. The only reason I would choose the full splice over the half splice is if my senses as a pool player were so in tune that I could tell the differance in how it played and preferred it.

 

[classiccues]

Joe, you need to show me where I mentioned number of sides or contact surfaces on floating points. You're kinda of hang up on my saying or indicating number of sides for a floating point when the only time that I mentioned sides or contact surfaces are when I was referring to half-spliced or landed points!

Don't you see my cues in the cue gallery? How can somebody who makes multi-profile floating inlayed points mention a specific number of sides for a floating point? Why do you keep hounding me about floating points when my only description given about them is that they don't have any intimate contact with the forearm/handle or ring.

Edwin Reyes

My apologies in mixing up floating points with your statement about flat bottom points...

Joe

 

[bandido]

My apologies in mixing up floating points with your statement about flat bottom points...

Joe

No need for apologies Joe. I did see where there was an opening for the mix-up.

 

[bandido]

Now I know that I don't have near the experience Cueman or Bandido have in these maters but I would still like to express my opinion if I may.
The way I see it there is no doubt that structurly the full splice is a better joint . The full splice has two major things going for it ,one is it has much greater surface area making it stronger, and two there is no end grain rubbing endgrain which leads to better resonating qualities. So the next logical question would be why don't all cue makers use this style of joint?
- it's much more time consuming and more difficult to accomplish
- it wastes more material
- it's harder to end up with even points(what do you think spear points are for)

How about
-passage of time which led to technological development and a lot of research and testing from a lot more cuemakers in existance.

I really couldn't agree that the full-splice is stronger compared to current A-jointed cues specially with my knowing how all these cuemakers with structurally superior A-joint construction. I don't think that the end-grain glueing pose a problem anymore. The adhesive and chemicals development have advanced in leaps and bounds since the 70s that now you can polymerize the end grains. Wood soaks in liquid the most through capilliary action, that's why kiln dried lumber and squares get their ends sealed to protect them from drastic changes in moisture content causing warpage, wouldn't you think that some chemical out there when used to soak into this end-grains can end up polymerizing them? How strong do you think that joint will be since now that it's polymer to polymer instead of end-grain to end-grain?

Hey, are you Shawn Armstrong?

Edwin Reyes

 

[Canadian cue]

I do agree that todays adhesives have minimized the negative effects of the end-grain rubbing-end grain. What you have stated makes a lot of sense, but this is only one of the problems associated with A-joints. The fact that the full splice joint runs over almost 7" of the cue gives it a lot of surface area much more than a thread and tenon will offer you. The best solutions to most problems are usually the simplest in nature. A full-splice is much simpler with a lot less potential for problems. You just have to ask, "Why did the half splice come about?" Because, it's easier and cheaper to manufacture! The half-splice was created to benefit the cuemaker not the customer. The other advantage the half splice offers the cuemaker, is it gives them better control over the end product and enables them to be more creative in the cue's design. As I said before a GOOD A-joint is still a viable compromise but overall the fullsplice is still hard to improve on as far as a method of joining two pieces of wood.

I am not sure who Shawn Armstrong is but I am not him. But since we are on the subject of names,I am sure you have been asked this many times before and it probably has come to annoy you when people ask but I have to know. Your name is very close to Efren Reyes name. I found this very ironic, you being a highly regarded cuemaker and him being like a pool god. Is this coincidence? Are you related? Is there a story behind this?

 

[merylane]

good posts canadian cue.
bandido,willie and cueman in the begining i was talking about the differences as the original post asked.
but you guys got worried about strength, you didnt answer my previous question so let me ask you to try an experiment?
take 2 strait maple forearms-put 4 big inlays in one and 4 splices in the other.
turn same size taper and length. suport on each end and begin putting a load in the middle. which broke first? i cant wait to see if the results from different cue makers would be the same.

as for the "a"joint is conserned please do the same test on that vers fullsplice.

i did not mention vibration or durring stroking the ball?

willie i guess the 4 extra shafts and case are also part of the cue because they are the sum of the whole! although that might be a hard sell.

 

[bandido]

I have to know. Your name is very close to Efren Reyes name. I found this very ironic, you being a highly regarded cuemaker and him being like a pool god. Is this coincidence? Are you related? Is there a story behind this?

My usual answer when asked about this is "Reyes' are a-dime-a-dozen here in the Philippines". We do see each other often whether here or there in the USA but hardly talk pool as I know that he probably prefers to do or talk about something else during his free time. The last couple of times were to play cards and sing/drink in a karaoke bar and most frequently just wave at each other. Although it's quite an honor when somebody mistakes a relationship between us, it does bother me at times for we each made a name for ourselves by ourselves.
Edwin Reyes

 

[bandido]

try an experiment?
take 2 strait maple forearms-put 4 big inlays in one and 4 splices in the other.
turn same size taper and length. suport on each end and begin putting a load in the middle. which broke first? i cant wait to see if the results from different cue makers would be the same.

as for the "a"joint is conserned please do the same test on that vers fullsplice.

Ok, I'll do that. I have access to my former university's Engineering Dept.'s testing laboratory where I've done some on lap joints. I'll go grab a 4 prong full-spliced house cue and one of my a-jointed terciary brand. I'll try and get the dimensions (diameters for a length of 14 inches) in that area as close as possible for both cues.

I have done a crude experiment before where I set the cue between 2 concrete blocks that are 14 inches apart. I centered the a-joint then I, all 146 lbs of me, balanced on top of the cue for a good minute (of course with the help of a finger on an adjacent wall to help keep my balance).
Never did try to go to breaking point though.

i did not mention vibration or durring stroking the ball?

You're right, you didn't mention those terms but did mention "flex". Isn't there a relation between how a cue flexes and it's resulting vibration?
Edwin Reyes

 

[WilleeCue]

willie i guess the 4 extra shafts and case are also part of the cue because they are the sum of the whole! although that might be a hard sell.

I guess I really dont know what you are asking.
Are you looking for the strongest, stiffest cue that can be made?

I guess a person could take it as redicliously far as he wanted and include the cue case as well. However that is not what I was getting at.
I think you are taking this strength thing a bit to far.
Would a cored butt be stiffer and stronger than a solid butt?
Is solid wood stronger than laminated wood?

The cue only needs to be strong enough and no more.
Exactly how strong is that?
I guess that depends upon how badly you mistreat your cue.
Every cuemaker knows how to make a cue that is strong enough to resist breaking with reasonable care. (at least I think they do)

Now, if you want to talk about the hit or feel then close your eyes cause they have nothing to do with it.
That was my point.
The hit and feel of a cue is the sum of all its parts and the ONLY way to tell if you like the cue is to play some pool with it.
Debating which splice is stronger or what butt is stiffer will get you nowhere.
Unless you only want the strongest and stiffest cue possable.

 

[bandido]

I guess I really dont know what you are asking.
Are you looking for the strongest, stiffest cue that can be made?

I guess a person could take it as redicliously far as he wanted and include the cue case as well. However that is not what I was getting at.
I think you are taking this strength thing a bit to far.
Would a cored butt be stiffer and stronger than a solid butt?
Is solid wood stronger than laminated wood?

The cue only needs to be strong enough and no more.
Exactly how strong is that?
I guess that depends upon how badly you mistreat your cue.
Every cuemaker knows how to make a cue that is strong enough to resist breaking with reasonable care. (at least I think they do)

Now, if you want to talk about the hit or feel then close your eyes cause they have nothing to do with it.
That was my point.
The hit and feel of a cue is the sum of all its parts and the ONLY way to tell if you like the cue is to play some pool with it.
Debating which splice is stronger or what butt is stiffer will get you nowhere.
Unless you only want the strongest and stiffest cue possable.

Bravo Willee!

 

[merylane]

bravo willie except i didnt start talking about strength or stiffness i was talking about the difference between spliced and inlayed cues. that was the original subject.
go back and read from the beginning.