Squirt vs. Action

[Shevek]

I took up pool in a serious way a little over a year ago. My first cue was a Predator with a 314. After one year of playing almost every day, I started to experiment with other cues. I went to a Pechauer with a relatively stiff shaft. I have much better control of the cue ball with regard to my "leaves" now, at the expense of "action" on the cue ball. (Which has had the pleasant by product of requiring me to improve my stroke, thank you very much!)

So it was my conclusion that any physical chararactistics designed into a cue to reduce cue ball squirt (low cue ball deflection) will inherently require the cue to "give" in some way. In other words if you want the cue ball to move to the side less, you need to allow the shaft to move (buckle or flex) more. Further, it was my conclusion that this give is the very thing that will increase the amount of spin - every thing else being equal - imposed onto the cue ball.

So, in my mind, low squirt equals high in action and vice versa.

Then I had a conversation with someone today who held the opinion that the two things are not necessarily mutally opposed. We didn't have time to discuss this in any detail, but that's what he said.

I'd like to hear opinions on the subject please.

Thanks
Don

 

[mikepage]

I took up pool in a serious way a little over a year ago. My first cue was a Predator with a 314. After one year of playing almost every day, I started to experiment with other cues. I went to a Pechauer with a relatively stiff shaft. I have much better control of the cue ball with regard to my "leaves" now, at the expense of "action" on the cue ball. (Which has had the pleasant by product of requiring me to improve my stroke, thank you very much!)

So it was my conclusion that any physical chararactistics designed into a cue to reduce cue ball squirt (low cue ball deflection) will inherently require the cue to "give" in some way. In other words if you want the cue ball to move to the side less, you need to allow the shaft to move (buckle or flex) more. Further, it was my conclusion that this give is the very thing that will increase the amount of spin - every thing else being equal - imposed onto the cue ball.

So, in my mind, low squirt equals high in action and vice versa.

Then I had a conversation with someone today who held the opinion that the two things are not necessarily mutally opposed. We didn't have time to discuss this in any detail, but that's what he said.

I'd like to hear opinions on the subject please.

Thanks
Don

A few subtleties aside, none of this stuff affects the amount of "action" you get. Your Pechauer doesn't get more or less action than your 314.

Also a cue can be as whippy as a wet noodle, and if it uses a denser than average ferrule material, it will squirt a lot.

The "give" you describe for squirt and the "give" you describe as buckle/flex are really two different animals.

The first is a dynamic resistance that happens over the first millimeter or so of sideways motion of the tip. The ball during this time really has no clue whether the shaft is stiff or flexible. The latter, the flex, has to do with details of the taper.

Imagine you sawed off the first four inches of your Pechauer and your 314 and then glued the Pechauer front end onto the 314 shaft and visa versa. Then the Pechauer stick would be low squirt and stiff, and the other would be high squirt and flexible.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A few subtleties aside, none of this stuff affects the amount of "action" you get. Your Pechauer doesn't get more or less action than your 314.

Also a cue can be as whippy as a wet noodle, and if it uses a denser than average ferrule material, it will squirt a lot.

The "give" you describe for squirt and the "give" you describe as buckle/flex are really two different animals.

The first is a dynamic resistance that happens over the first millimeter or so of sideways motion of the tip. The ball during this time really has no clue whether the shaft is stiff or flexible. The latter, the flex, has to do with details of the taper.

Imagine you sawed off the first four inches of your Pechauer and your 314 and then glued the Pechauer front end onto the 314 shaft and visa versa. Then the Pechauer stick would be low squirt and stiff, and the other would be high squirt and flexible.

And, by the way, the stuff Mike describes isn't just his theory. Everybody who knows this stuff agrees (although Mike describes it better than most), and it's all been confirmed by real-life testing.

No stick gives significantly more action than another. If you think it does you're either imagining it or producing it yourself (by unconsciously hitting farther from centerball).

pj
chgo

 

[WesleyW]

...No stick gives significantly more action than another. If you think it does you're either imagining it or producing it yourself (by unconsciously hitting farther from centerball).

pj
chgo

Pechauer got a 13mm tip. De 314 got a 12.75mm. So for the 314, it is a little easier to hit a little further from the centerball. Which mention by PJ will produce more action. So it's quite logical that your 314 produce more action. Because it's a lot easier for you to make more action by yourself. Perhaps this will explain what you feel in practice.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I took up pool in a serious way a little over a year ago. My first cue was a Predator with a 314. After one year of playing almost every day, I started to experiment with other cues. I went to a Pechauer with a relatively stiff shaft. I have much better control of the cue ball with regard to my "leaves" now, at the expense of "action" on the cue ball. (Which has had the pleasant by product of requiring me to improve my stroke, thank you very much!)

So it was my conclusion that any physical chararactistics designed into a cue to reduce cue ball squirt (low cue ball deflection) will inherently require the cue to "give" in some way. In other words if you want the cue ball to move to the side less, you need to allow the shaft to move (buckle or flex) more. Further, it was my conclusion that this give is the very thing that will increase the amount of spin - every thing else being equal - imposed onto the cue ball.

So, in my mind, low squirt equals high in action and vice versa.

Then I had a conversation with someone today who held the opinion that the two things are not necessarily mutally opposed. We didn't have time to discuss this in any detail, but that's what he said.

I'd like to hear opinions on the subject please.

Thanks
Don

The 314 is a 12.75 mm tip. I'm betting the Pechauer was closer to 13.25 mm. That half a millimeter can make a big difference in terms of where you're hitting the CB. You may feel like you're lining up very low on the CB, but if you compare chalk marks, you may find you're not hitting nearly as low with the fatter tip as you were with the predator, due to the visual difference in how the larger tip looks against the CB. That's my guess as to the reason for your perceived difference in "action".

-Andrew

 

[Andrew Manning]

Pechauer got a 13mm tip. De 314 got a 12.75mm. So for the 314, it is a little easier to hit a little further from the centerball. Which mention by PJ will produce more action. So it's quite logical that your 314 produce more action. Because it's a lot easier for you to make more action by yourself. Perhaps this will explain what you feel in practice.

I see you said what I said, but earlier.

-Andrew

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pechauer got a 13mm tip. De 314 got a 12.75mm. So for the 314, it is a little easier to hit a little further from the centerball. Which mention by PJ will produce more action. So it's quite logical that you think your 314 produce more action. Because it's a lot easier for you to make more action by yourself. Perhaps this will explain what you feel in practice.

[Clarification added in red.]

It's important to say it correctly, because saying it incorrectly just helps keep the myth alive.

The 314 does not produce more action; the player produces it by hitting farther from centerball than he thinks.

You cannot get more maximum spin with a 314 than you can with any other cue.

pj
chgo

 

[WesleyW]

[Clarification added in red.]

It's important to say it correctly, because saying it incorrectly just helps keep the myth alive.

The 314 does not produce more action; the player produces it by hitting farther from centerball than he thinks.

You cannot get more maximum spin with a 314 than you can with any other cue.

pj
chgo

I don't think I'm incorrect. Let me explain it to you. You can hit the CB with a 12.75mm tip lower than you can with a 13mm tip. So with a 314 you can produce more action by hitting lower. Which you cant with the pechauer (13mm). So it's still not the stick that produce the action, but it's the player who can apply more action with different shafts.

 

[mikepage]

I don't think I'm incorrect. Let me explain it to you. You can hit the CB with a 12.75mm tip lower than you can with a 13mm tip. [...]

Would you explain what you mean by this? If the miscue limit is 13 mm, can't you hit down to 13 mm with either stick?

 

[WesleyW]

Would you explain what you mean by this? If the miscue limit is 13 mm, can't you hit down to 13 mm with either stick?

Why do you think 13mm is the miscue limit? I play with a 12mm. If you hit it quite soft with a good stroke, you can actually hit it pretty far from the center without miscueing. So when you hit the cloth and the CB at the same time, you can hit it a little lower with a smaller tipsize. Not easy to do, but it's possible.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why do you think 13mm is the miscue limit?

Haven't you ever miscued a draw shot with a 13mm stick? How do you think that happens if you can't hit below the miscue limit? Anyway, because your stick is always elevated at least a little, the miscue limit is actually higher off the cloth than you might think. There's plenty of room for any normal stick to miscue by hitting too low. That means you can't get any more draw with a thinner tip.

Also, this is only about draw. Follow and sidespin wouldn't be affected by tip diameter even if you were correct about this.

pj
chgo

[Edit: By the way, the fact that the miscue limit is about 13mm from centerball and that we're talking about 13mm sticks is purely coincidental. One has nothing to do with the other. The miscue limit is about 13mm from centerball no matter what size tip you use. I think Ron Shepard's pool physics paper, Amateur Physics for the Amateur Pool Player (link here), includes the physics formula that predicts the ~13mm miscue limit, and it has been extensively tested (including by me).]

 

[Andrew Manning]

Haven't you ever miscued a draw shot with a 13mm stick? How do you think that happens if you can't hit below the miscue limit? Anyway, because your stick is always elevated at least a little, the miscue limit is actually higher off the cloth than you might think. There's plenty of room for any normal stick to miscue by hitting too low. That means you can't get any more draw with a thinner tip.

Also, this is only about draw. Follow and sidespin wouldn't be affected by tip diameter even if you were correct about this.

pj
chgo

True, but what I mentioned could still be a reason the narrower tip appears to produce more action, visually your tip location on the CB looks very different with a different sized tip, I believe the OP just doesn't hit as far off center with the Pechauer due to that.

-Andrew

 

[Patrick Johnson]

True, but what I mentioned could still be a reason the narrower tip appears to produce more action, visually your tip location on the CB looks very different with a different sized tip, I believe the OP just doesn't hit as far off center with the Pechauer due to that.

-Andrew

Yes, we're talking about appearance vs. reality.

pj
chgo

 

[arsenius]

I don't think I'm incorrect. Let me explain it to you. You can hit the CB with a 12.75mm tip lower than you can with a 13mm tip. So with a 314 you can produce more action by hitting lower. Which you cant with the pechauer (13mm). So it's still not the stick that produce the action, but it's the player who can apply more action with different shafts.

The problem with your thinking is that you will miscue outside of a certain range on the cue ball(smaller than you think, about the size of a quarter). Unless you have a huge shaft, you can easily hit the edge of your tip outside of the miscue area.

It's true that you can hit lower with a smaller tip (you could hit the lowest point with a needle), but you will miscue. If you think you are hitting lower, then you are deceiving yourself. Any normal shaft size (12mm-13.5mm doesn't matter) will have no trouble hitting the maximum low point.

 

[WesleyW]

Haven't you ever miscued a draw shot with a 13mm stick? How do you think that happens if you can't hit below the miscue limit? Anyway, because your stick is always elevated at least a little, the miscue limit is actually higher off the cloth than you might think. There's plenty of room for any normal stick to miscue by hitting too low. That means you can't get any more draw with a thinner tip.

I haven't played with a 13mm tip for a long time. I only played with a 12mm tip. I don't have any problems with hitting as low as possible. Just get the cue as level as possible and hit it slowly. Perhaps I'm not hitting the spot where I'm aiming at.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Haven't you ever miscued a draw shot with a 13mm stick? How do you think that happens if you can't hit below the miscue limit? Anyway, because your stick is always elevated at least a little, the miscue limit is actually higher off the cloth than you might think. There's plenty of room for any normal stick to miscue by hitting too low. That means you can't get any more draw with a thinner tip.

I haven't played with a 13mm tip for a long time. I only played with a 12mm tip. I don't have any problems with hitting as low as possible. Just get the cue as level as possible and hit it slowly. Perhaps I'm not hitting the spot where I'm aiming at.

I think that's true for the vast majority of players, and using a smaller tip helps, I think. I use a 10mm tip and one thing it has definitely helped with is hitting the CB farther from center on all kinds of spin shots - I can see better where I'm hitting and it gives me the confidence to go farther out. This is especially true for draw where a fatter tip can look like it's too close to the cloth and make me nervous - then my damned subconscious gets into the act and makes me hit higher than I wanted to.

pj
chgo

 

[Andrew Manning]

I think that's true for the vast majority of players, and using a smaller tip helps, I think. I use a 10mm tip and one thing it has definitely helped with is hitting the CB farther from center on all kinds of spin shots - I can see better where I'm hitting and it gives me the confidence to go farther out. This is especially true for draw where a fatter tip can look like it's too close to the cloth and make me nervous - then my damned subconscious gets into the act and makes me hit higher than I wanted to.

pj
chgo

What kind of cue is that, with the 10mm tip? Is that a maple shaft, or is it ash? Just curious.

-Andrew

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What kind of cue is that, with the 10mm tip? Is that a maple shaft, or is it ash? Just curious.

-Andrew

Maple, conical taper (stiff hit), hollow 1st 6 inches, 1/4" ferrule. I had Ed Young make it for me (for pool, not snooker) a few years ago. Squirts less than an OB-1 (far as I can tell). No extra spin or extra sensitivity - just less squirt and more tip/ball precision.

pj
chgo