Stance and double vision

PariahZero

Member
I’m working on improving my stance, and have a question: I’ve read quite a bit from Dr. Dave, and other places. I’ve noticed how close to the cue the head is when examples of a good stance are shown, or when watching tournaments.

My question: while it’s not that’s hard for me to get into the same position, my problem is that unless my chin is fairly high above the cue (8-12 inches), I literally can’t see straight. My eyes are unable to converge on anything - object balls, diamonds, pockets, whatever. I not only see double, but the image of one eye is also rotated 20° compared to the other. (The rails also form an “x” about 20° to the left of my vision center.)

My questions are:

• Is that at all normal? (Yeah, probably a better question for an Eye Dr.)
• Is it better form to have the head low (and aim with one eye), or higher up where my eyes converge on the balls properly? Or is it more of a “what works best for me” thing?

Thanks.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No not normal--especially the 20º rotation.

It is better to have the head as low as the rest of your body is comfortable with. The lower the head, and the more upright the head the easier it is for you to watch the CB roll down the chosen line and make contact with OB. This enables you to see cuing errors and correct them, the higher the head in relation to the table the harder it is to visualize the line and watch the CB roll down it.
 

erriep

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hi,
it's time to visit an orthoptist and/or an optometrist !
Do you wear glasses ?
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’m working on improving my stance, and have a question: I’ve read quite a bit from Dr. Dave, and other places. I’ve noticed how close to the cue the head is when examples of a good stance are shown, or when watching tournaments.

The reasons for this are here:

advantage of a low stance

Advice on how to get low can be found in the last two videos here:

stance technique advice


• Is it better form to have the head low (and aim with one eye)

No.


or higher up where my eyes converge on the balls properly?

Yes, getting as low as you can without having vision issues.


Or is it more of a “what works best for me” thing?

Always.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’m working on improving my stance, and have a question: I’ve read quite a bit from Dr. Dave, and other places. I’ve noticed how close to the cue the head is when examples of a good stance are shown, or when watching tournaments.

My question: while it’s not that’s hard for me to get into the same position, my problem is that unless my chin is fairly high above the cue (8-12 inches), I literally can’t see straight. My eyes are unable to converge on anything - object balls, diamonds, pockets, whatever. I not only see double, but the image of one eye is also rotated 20° compared to the other. (The rails also form an “x” about 20° to the left of my vision center.)

My questions are:

• Is that at all normal? (Yeah, probably a better question for an Eye Dr.)
• Is it better form to have the head low (and aim with one eye), or higher up where my eyes converge on the balls properly? Or is it more of a “what works best for me” thing?
Get an exam from an eye doctor who specializes in double vision
you probably have a phoria like me and need prism correction in your glasses
i wear glassaes only for pool
pm me if you want to talk about it
 
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PariahZero

Member
Do you wear glasses ?

I have glasses, for when it’s dark; the Doc said with my prescription, there’s not much benefit in wearing them when there’s plenty of light... even then, I’d look over the top of the lenses playing pool.

The exam was obviously when I’m looking straight ahead, so I can see how it would be missed. The only time it’s a problem for me is playing pool... even then I thought it was normal.

Oh well. I’m due for a checkup anyway, so I’ll bring it up then.

Thanks!
 

erriep

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have glasses, for when it’s dark; the Doc said with my prescription, there’s not much benefit in wearing them when there’s plenty of light... even then, I’d look over the top of the lenses playing pool.

The exam was obviously when I’m looking straight ahead, so I can see how it would be missed. The only time it’s a problem for me is playing pool... even then I thought it was normal.

Oh well. I’m due for a checkup anyway, so I’ll bring it up then.

Thanks!
you obviously have a binocular/oculomotor muscles problem.
To make a primary oculomotor muscles checkup with an orthoptist would be a good idea, pal.
 

mark187

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could you be sighting differently when lower down, maybe more central rather than favoring a dominant eye? If I cue with my chin on the cue, my sight is clearer if I tend towards my right eye side
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have glasses, for when it’s dark; the Doc said with my prescription, there’s not much benefit in wearing them when there’s plenty of light... even then, I’d look over the top of the lenses playing pool.

The exam was obviously when I’m looking straight ahead, so I can see how it would be missed. The only time it’s a problem for me is playing pool... even then I thought it was normal.

Oh well. I’m due for a checkup anyway, so I’ll bring it up then.

Thanks!
Wondering, do you tilt your head? Or does tilting your head make any difference?
I use the double vision. I focus on the key points individually but if everything checks, it's pointless to strain your stress your eyes any further.
 

PariahZero

Member
Wondering, do you tilt your head? Or does tilting your head make any difference?
I use the double vision. I focus on the key points individually but if everything checks, it's pointless to strain your stress your eyes any further.

I do tilt my head “upwards,” as far as I can. Not to the side, though.

Unless I raise my head/body higher, tilting my head isn’t enough. I need to raise my head enough that I can look probably 10-15 degrees lower, at which my eyes converge properly.

A visit to an eye doctor sounds in order.
 
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CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Well some people think they have handicaps, other says I am not handicapped, I am different. Had a fellow in Phoenix has trembles so bad it was very noticeable, he had either Parkinson's, or MS. Not sure what, but he would get down on shot, must have been do some mental calculations, while shaking. Then shoot the ball between trembles, and alway finished up near top of local top level players in tournments. He improvised, adapted, and overcame.
 

PariahZero

Member
Well some people think they have handicaps, other says I am not handicapped, I am different. Had a fellow in Phoenix has trembles so bad it was very noticeable, he had either Parkinson's, or MS. Not sure what, but he would get down on shot, must have been do some mental calculations, while shaking. Then shoot the ball between trembles, and alway finished up near top of local top level players in tournments. He improvised, adapted, and overcame.

I wouldn’t say it’s a handicap, in my case. It’s more a case of temet nosce - know thyself.

If it’s something that can be easily corrected with glasses, great. Otherwise, I know I need to hold my head high enough that my eyes converge on the balls properly. No big deal, and it makes sense.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I do tilt my head “upwards,” as far as I can. Not to the side, though.

Unless I raise my head/body higher, tilting my head isn’t enough. I need to raise my head enough that I can look probably 10-15 degrees lower, at which my eyes converge properly.

A visit to an eye doctor sounds in order.
Yes I mean the horizontal. Have you checked? Sometimes you just want a shot to look right and you might not be aware of the actual orientation of your head. You definitely get your eyes diagnosed though.
 

Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Been there, done that.

Without corrective glasses my visual image jumps vertically with a tilt of about 10-15 degrees when looking straight ahead and alternately closing each eye. When looking down or to the right it clears up but comes back when looking up or to the left. I don't wear glasses most of the time but I tilt my head slightly to the left. The farther I tilt it to the right the more pronounced it becomes.

I had two surgeries, the first one made it worse and the second made it better but did not completely get rid of it so I wear corrective glasses for driving and another pair for playing pool. I like to get down as low as possible and the glasses help quite a bit.

The pool glasses only have prism correction. The pair for driving also have some distance correction and are bifocal with the lower part having no correction so I can read the instruments and radio. I got them from Walmart for about 100 bucks, nothing fancy but I tried on a number of frames while getting down in shooting position to make sure the top of the frame wasn't in the way. The optometrist had me do the same when mapping my visual center.

The other weird thing going on is I shoot right handed but am left eye dominant, with my cue below my left eye, like John Morra, possibly because my right eye is the one that is out of whack.

If I had it to do over again I would have tried glasses before going with surgery but the ophthalmologist told me that once I started wearing glasses with prism I would have to wear them all the time, which at least in my case, is not true.
 
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PariahZero

Member
Yes I mean the horizontal. Have you checked? Sometimes you just want a shot to look right and you might not be aware of the actual orientation of your head. You definitely get your eyes diagnosed though.

Yes, I’ve checked the horizontal tilt. If I don’t hold my head level, I definitely miss what I’m aiming at.
 

PariahZero

Member
Been there, done that.

The other weird thing going on is I shoot right handed but am left eye dominant, with my cue below my left eye, like John Morra, possibly because my right eye is the one that is out of whack.

If I had it to do over again I would have tried glasses before going with surgery but the ophthalmologist told me that once I started wearing glasses with prism I would have to wear them all the time, which at least in my case, is not true.

My dad wore glasses with prisms pretty much my whole life, so I’m at least familiar with the concept.

I’m somewhat left eye dominant, right handed. I say “somewhat” because it’s actually far from clear. I take eye dominance with a grain of salt - the typical “tests” show I’m left eye dominant. I shoot rifles and arrows with my right eye, pistols and cameras with my left. I find body ergonomics more important than eye dominance.

My “vision center” for pool is definitely between the eyes... I’m working on getting that nailed down, but I’m starting to get a stance where everything “just works,” and feels “right” as I shoot.

It’s weird to know the feeling of the good stance as I leave it, but not as I approach the shot.

Either way, I’m grateful for everyone’s replies. Very useful information!
 
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Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My dad wore glasses with prisms pretty much my whole life, so I’m at least familiar with the concept.

I’m somewhat left eye dominant, right handed. I say “somewhat” because it’s actually far from clear. I take eye dominance with a grain of salt - the typical “tests” show I’m left eye dominant. I shoot rifles and arrows with my right eye, pistols and cameras with my left. I find body ergonomics more important than eye dominance.

My “vision center” for pool is definitely between the eyes... I’m working on getting that nailed down, but I’m starting to get a stance where everything “just works,” and feels “right” as I shoot.

It’s weird to know the feeling of the good stance as I leave it, but not as I approach the shot.

Either way, I’m grateful for everyone’s replies. Very useful information!
After I used a mirror at the end of the table I found out that I was centering the cue under my left eye. Up to that point, I hadn't thought about it.

I was under the impression that visual center had more to do with vertical, not horizontal alignment of the lens vis a vis the eyes. In my case, I wanted to make sure that my vision was optimal when looking through the upper part of the lenses, which would be the case when I am bent over.
 

PariahZero

Member
Have you seen an eye doctor yet?

Between Christmas and New Year? Are you kidding me? Everybody and their dog seems to be trying to get an appointment in before the insurance year rolls ends. No slots left.

I’ll try to get in over the next few weeks. I’ve got other issues that are a bit higher priority right now.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Between Christmas and New Year? Are you kidding me? Everybody and their dog seems to be trying to get an appointment in before the insurance year rolls ends. No slots left.

I’ll try to get in over the next few weeks. I’ve got other issues that are a bit higher priority right now.
thanks for the reply
would like to know the results
pm is ok
i have a phoria and need prisms in my glasses for pool
 
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