State Championship tournaments

[Snapshot9]

Questions to be debated:

1) Should State Championship tournaments (ie, 8 or 9 ball)
allow out of state players to play? or just in state players?
(some states vary on this)

2) Should known pros, or pro quality (like pro road players)
be excluded or not?

3) Should State championship tournaments that are like
BCA sponsored provide all expense paid for trip to the winner
to the National tournament?

 

[mapman72]

State Tournaments

1. No, it should only be open to state players.
2. Pros should be excluded if the first prize is entry into a national event. The problem is that there's such a gray area in determining who is a pro and who's not. For instance, there was some discussion a couple weeks ago about Josh Brothers winning a Planet Pool "amateur's only" event. Some assumed that Josh was a pro, but he didn't fit the "pro" criteria so he was allowed to participate in the event. Is Josh a pro?
3. Yes, that would be great.

Just my opinions.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Questions to be debated:

1) Should State Championship tournaments (ie, 8 or 9 ball)
allow out of state players to play? or just in state players?
(some states vary on this)

2) Should known pros, or pro quality (like pro road players)
be excluded or not?

3) Should State championship tournaments that are like
BCA sponsored provide all expense paid for trip to the winner
to the National tournament?

1. I think Open tournaments should be entirely open to all players, regardless as to where they're from. This line of thinking is the same one people use to argue the US Open should be for American players only.

2. If it's a Championship then yes. If you want to exclude them, it should be called an Amateur State Championship.

3. That all depends on what they're offering as a prize. Personally, I like cash best. I may not be able to attend the National Championship.

 

[JAM]

Questions to be debated:

1) Should State Championship tournaments (ie, 8 or 9 ball)
allow out of state players to play? or just in state players?
(some states vary on this)

Well, since I just got back from the Virginia STATE CHAMPIONSHIP tournament in Richmond, I can add a little food for thought to the thread.

I believe a STATE championship should be restricted to the State. In the instance of Virginia, the tournament director decided to include the District of Columbia. Being that I live in D.C., I was grateful and appreciative that he included the Nation's Capital, since D.C. residents continue to taxed without representation and do not enjoy the same rights as their State counterparts.

The last Maryland State tournament was held in 1986 and was run by yours truly. If they ever resurrect it, I'd like to see them include D.C. as well, but then again, I'm just a little bit prejudiced. I happen to live a half-a-block from the D.C.-Maryland line.

D.C. has had its share of legendary players, Strawberry Brooks, "Jackie Robinson," Sterling, but most D.C. pool players, the ones who have a passion for the game/sport, do venture on out to Maryland or Virginia to play pool.

2) Should known pros, or pro quality (like pro road players) be excluded or not?

I think it depends on the venue. If the aim of the STATE CHAMPIONSHIP is for amateur-level players, then I would say yes.

However, if the word "OPEN" in included in the title, then I would think the doors would be open to all, bar-bangers, aspiring hopefuls, young guns, UPA Touring pros, league players, social shooters, road players, and, yes, the "pro road players." LOL!

3) Should State championship tournaments that are like
BCA sponsored provide all expense paid for trip to the winner
to the National tournament?

Sounds like a good idea to me, but then again, it may be a tough sell.

JAM

 

[Snapshot9]

thoughts ...

Jam and Jude ... I was wanting to get thoughts on question 3
since I won the Kansas State BCA Championship in 2003,
and I got $560, which I felt was underpaid for a State Championship.
A trip to Nationals along with the cash would have been nice.
(I won $500 the weekend before in Hutchinson for a 32 player
tournament that I won).


My team also won the team Championship too.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jam and Jude ... I was wanting to get thoughts on question 3
since I won the Kansas State BCA Championship in 2003,
and I got $560, which I felt was underpaid for a State Championship.
A trip to Nationals along with the cash would have been nice.
(I won $500 the weekend before in Hutchinson for a 32 player
tournament that I won).


My team also won the team Championship too.

I cannot tell you how many times I've played in tounaments and was disappointed by the prize. Can I ask you what the entry was and how many participated? The name of the event will never dictate prizes.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You know what I think? I think you just wanted to casually mention that you just won the Kansas State Championships.


Well Congratulations! I hope you shot well!

 

[JAM]

Jam and Jude ... I was wanting to get thoughts on question 3
since I won the Kansas State BCA Championship in 2003,
and I got $560, which I felt was underpaid for a State Championship.
A trip to Nationals along with the cash would have been nice.
(I won $500 the weekend before in Hutchinson for a 32 player
tournament that I won).


My team also won the team Championship too.

Those are some nice wins, Snapshot9!

What a so-called "STATE" tournament offers in the way of payouts is dependent on what the promoter/tournament director can rustle up in the way of added monies, to include soliciting sponsors and organizations like the BCA. The BCA is an industry member organization. If there is a BCA member who resides within your State, I'd be forming a PAC and start talking to them. Just like politics here in D.C., that's the only way to get noticed.

Regional events like the tournament you won in Hutchinson are the best bang for the buck, usually held on weekends. Depending on the entry fee and how many players get in, the higher the purse. FWIW, 500 bucks, presumably tax free, is a nice little chunkie and not bad for a day's work (IMO).

JAM

 

[Snapshot9]

entry ...

I cannot tell you how many times I've played in tounaments and was disappointed by the prize. Can I ask you what the entry was and how many participated? The name of the event will never dictate prizes.

It was either $40 or $50 individual and I believe, $150 for 5 man team.
The individual was a 64 player event that had 55 in it.
I can not remember how many teams, but we got $175 per man
for the team championship.

 

[Snapshot9]

no, it isn't ...

You know what I think? I think you just wanted to casually mention that you just won the Kansas State Championships.


Well Congratulations! I hope you shot well!

Jude .... no, it wasn't ... I have always thought that the payback was not
equal to the tournament, and just wanted to get other people's feelings
about State tournaments, but yes, it lingers in my mind so much because
it happened to me. That's all.

I did not play in many tournaments when I was younger, only as I got older.
I mostly just matched up for money games when I was younger, so I still
have some issues about tournaments every now and then.

 

[dogginda9]

Historically, the BCA state tournaments that I have gone to, both my state and the neighboring state, have both paid around $1000 to the Open and the Master singles championships. I guess that is a pretty good payout at the state level.

 

[sixpack]

Jude .... no, it wasn't ... I have always thought that the payback was not
equal to the tournament, and just wanted to get other people's feelings
about State tournaments, but yes, it lingers in my mind so much because
it happened to me. That's all.

I did not play in many tournaments when I was younger, only as I got older.
I mostly just matched up for money games when I was younger, so I still
have some issues about tournaments every now and then.

I played in the Open division of the Colorado state championships a few years back and it paid pretty well. I think I got $1400 for getting 3rd. It was CBA - Colorado Billiards Association, which unfortunately is no more, but was probably the best handicapping and league system I've played in. They did not allow touring pros, but road players were in so long as they had a minimum number of tournaments in the system.

I have also played in the Kansas State 8-ball champs and there were all kind of players there. I believe Gabe Owen won the year I played. But I don't think it was a BCA tourney, maybe you can help me here Snapshot, but there were two big tourneys at Shooters in Wichita when I lived there, one was the state 8-ball champs and the other was the Thanksgiving tourney. I think they were two different tourneys, but one of them had Gabe, Matlock, Danny Medina, James Walden, Jamie & Jesse Bowen and a ton of other great players. I can't remember any more, but it seemed like they both had a lot higher payout than $560. $560 is definitely underpaid for a state champ in my opinion.

As for your questions:
1 - If it's sanctioned with added money from a sanctioning body, then I think only people who played tournaments/leagues in that state should be able to play. If it is all sponsorship/advertising money, then I think it should be open to all.
2 - if it's open, I think pros should be able to play, but if there is a governing body such as BCA, then pros should not play unless they played in the leagues just like everybody else.
3 - Yes. If they are sanctioned, that should be part of the first place prize.

Cheers,
Regas

btw - I think you mentioned in another thread that you're friends with Jamie Sanders, tell him I said hello. He'll remember me from Denver and then I moved to Wichita for a couple years while he was out there.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude .... no, it wasn't ... I have always thought that the payback was not
equal to the tournament, and just wanted to get other people's feelings
about State tournaments, but yes, it lingers in my mind so much because
it happened to me. That's all.

I did not play in many tournaments when I was younger, only as I got older.
I mostly just matched up for money games when I was younger, so I still
have some issues about tournaments every now and then.

That's actually not the worst pay-ratio I've heard of. I've won tournaments where I received 5:1 on the money in a 25 player field with the entry at around $100. Really, it depends on how the event is organized and what is anticiapted in terms of draw. Had it been a big field, I doubt anyone would have noticed. Once you get to the smaller fields, it's really up in the air as to how things will go. In my example, players of varying ability paid different amounts yet the TD's cut remained the same.

 

[Snapshot9]

Hi ...

I played in the Open division of the Colorado state championships a few years back and it paid pretty well. I think I got $1400 for getting 3rd. It was CBA - Colorado Billiards Association, which unfortunately is no more, but was probably the best handicapping and league system I've played in. They did not allow touring pros, but road players were in so long as they had a minimum number of tournaments in the system.

I have also played in the Kansas State 8-ball champs and there were all kind of players there. I believe Gabe Owen won the year I played. But I don't think it was a BCA tourney, maybe you can help me here Snapshot, but there were two big tourneys at Shooters in Wichita when I lived there, one was the state 8-ball champs and the other was the Thanksgiving tourney. I think they were two different tourneys, but one of them had Gabe, Matlock, Danny Medina, James Walden, Jamie & Jesse Bowen and a ton of other great players. I can't remember any more, but it seemed like they both had a lot higher payout than $560. $560 is definitely underpaid for a state champ in my opinion.

As for your questions:
1 - If it's sanctioned with added money from a sanctioning body, then I think only people who played tournaments/leagues in that state should be able to play. If it is all sponsorship/advertising money, then I think it should be open to all.
2 - if it's open, I think pros should be able to play, but if there is a governing body such as BCA, then pros should not play unless they played in the leagues just like everybody else.
3 - Yes. If they are sanctioned, that should be part of the first place prize.

Cheers,
Regas

btw - I think you mentioned in another thread that you're friends with Jamie Sanders, tell him I said hello. He'll remember me from Denver and then I moved to Wichita for a couple years while he was out there.

Regas ... I think I remember you. Yes, Jamie 'the Kansas kid' Sanders and I are good friends, and go to tournaments together some. Those that don't know Jamie, might remember his good friend and buddy, Doc from Hutchinson, who was a world class player in his day.

Most of the best draws were for Shooters Thanksgiving tournament that had $4,000 added plus calcutta. You're right the Kansas State 8 Championships were there too, and drew many good players also. The one I won was at SidePockets out by Tyler and Kellogg, the new big place and was the BCA santioned tournament. They get some good players for the Midwest 9 ball tour there. But Shooters also drew players like Tony Fargo, Cliff Joyner, Raphael Martinez one year, that Pollock pro from around Chicago (I lost to him one year in the quarter-finals just barely though). The Bowens made quite a splash here, and they had another guy with them that played real strong too.

 

[sixpack]

Regas ... I think I remember you. Yes, Jamie 'the Kansas kid' Sanders and I are good friends, and go to tournaments together some. Those that don't know Jamie, might remember his good friend and buddy, Doc from Hutchinson, who was a world class player in his day.

Most of the best draws were for Shooters Thanksgiving tournament that had $4,000 added plus calcutta. You're right the Kansas State 8 Championships were there too, and drew many good players also. The one I won was at SidePockets out by Tyler and Kellogg, the new big place and was the BCA santioned tournament. They get some good players for the Midwest 9 ball tour there. But Shooters also drew players like Tony Fargo, Cliff Joyner, Raphael Martinez one year, that Pollock pro from around Chicago (I lost to him one year in the quarter-finals just barely though). The Bowens made quite a splash here, and they had another guy with them that played real strong too.

I don't know if side pockets was open when I was there - 97-99.

Yeah, Cliff Joyner was there too and I didn't know who he was, but I was playing him on the challenge table. Then, while he's running out on me Gabe said "he makes it look easy, don't he" and I figured he could probably play a little.

How's this for bad action? Playing at the challenge table at shooters during the thanksgiving tournament it was me, Jamie, Cliff Joyner, Gabe, Coy Lee, Junior Brown, Jesse Bowman and James Walden. Dave Gomez was in and out a couple games. Might have been a couple others in there too, but it was by far the toughest challenge table I've ever been on.

I think I met you when you were with Jamie once and then saw you around some, but I don't think we ever met up in those tourneys. I heard your name a lot when people were talking about the best players around.

I've lived in a lot of places, but Wichita is by far the best pool town I've lived in. I don't know if it's still the same, but you could find good action any day of the week there.

I met Jamie in '89 or '90 at a small tourney in Golden, CO and he helped me a bunch with my game over the years. He is one of the good guys.

Cheers,
Regas