Step #1 To Improve The Image Of Pocket Billiards

ENGLISH! said:
Paul,


To be honest, I don't think that it is written in the rules of golf that one is required to call fouls on oneself.

Generally I agree with you. As much as can spelled out specifically in the rules should be written into the rules.

Best Wishes,
Rick
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It is implied in the rules of golf under section 1.Etiquette. Pocket Billiards needs the same. Where honesty and consideration is concerned, the rules for golf would provide an excellent template.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
It is implied in the rules of golf under section 1.Etiquette. Pocket Billiards needs the same. Where honesty and consideration is concerned, the rules for golf would provide an excellent template.
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Paul,

Again, I agree.

AND, The PGA would make a great template for the players to take their destiny into their own hands.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Paul Schofield said:
Presently, players are not obligated to call fouls on themselves. It is not in the rules.
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I think that is an erroneous conclusion, Paul. There have been a couple of long threads on this subject in the past 7 months. I can point you to them if you are interested. Here is my logic from those threads as to why the obligation exists.

True, the rules contain no explicit language requiring self-reporting of fouls. But the rules specify (1) those actions that are fouls and (2) the consequences of those fouls. The rules do not say such actions are fouls only if the opponent or referee is paying attention, or is able to see them, and calls them. So if they occur, they are fouls, and the specified consequences should follow. But the specified consequences cannot occur unless someone acknowledges that the foul occurred. And in some cases it is only the fouling player who is aware that it occurred. Hence, by the rules, he is obliged to call it.

In a refereed match, when a player thinks he has fouled and the ref does not call it, that player has an obligation to inform the ref of the foul. Now, it's possible that the player thinks he fouled when he really did not. [Example -- the ball the player is watching fails to hit a rail and the player thinks he fouled, but, in fact, he did hit a rail with another ball he didn't see.] So the player should inform the ref of the foul he thinks he committed. It is then up to the ref to make the call or not. If the player is sure he fouled and the ref won't call it (example -- he knows he touched a ball in an all-balls-foul match), he can continue play knowing that he fully satisfied his obligation. [Some people might even go so far as to make an obvious, compensatory foul at the next opportunity.]

In a non-refereed match, the obligation is to inform the opponent.
 
AtLarge said:
I think that is an erroneous conclusion, Paul. There have been a couple of long threads on this subject in the past 7 months. I can point you to them if you are interested. Here is my logic from those threads as to why the obligation exists.

True, the rules contain no explicit language requiring self-reporting of fouls. But the rules specify (1) those actions that are fouls and (2) the consequences of those fouls. The rules do not say such actions are fouls only if the opponent or referee is paying attention, or is able to see them, and calls them. So if they occur, they are fouls, and the specified consequences should follow. But the specified consequences cannot occur unless someone acknowledges that the foul occurred. And in some cases it is only the fouling player who is aware that it occurred. Hence, by the rules, he is obliged to call it.

In a refereed match, when a player thinks he has fouled and the ref does not call it, that player has an obligation to inform the ref of the foul. Now, it's possible that the player thinks he fouled when he really did not. [Example -- the ball the player is watching fails to hit a rail and the player thinks he fouled, but, in fact, he did hit a rail with another ball he didn't see.] So the player should inform the ref of the foul he thinks he committed. It is then up to the ref to make the call or not. If the player is sure he fouled and the ref won't call it (example -- he knows he touched a ball in an all-balls-foul match), he can continue play knowing that he fully satisfied his obligation. [Some people might even go so far as to make an obvious, compensatory foul at the next opportunity.]

In a non-refereed match, the obligation is to inform the opponent.
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So you are saying that we do not need a code of honor in the rules. Everything is fine the way it is. You are happy with our net result. Furthermore, it can be concluded that golf does not need theirs either and should just get rid of it.

I say golf beats us in every way and we should take some lessons.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
So you are saying that we do not need a code of honor in the rules. Everything is fine the way it is. You are happy with our net result. Furthermore, it can be concluded that golf does not need theirs either and should just get rid of it.

I say golf beats us in every way and we should take some lessons.
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No, I didn't say everything is fine. I simply said that I believe your conclusion that there is no obligation to call fouls on oneself is erroneous.

If everyone actually followed the rules, a code of conduct should be unnecessary. But given the way things are, such a code may be helpful (or at least do no harm).
 
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You start with teaching kids the game, in a proper formal way. Everything after that will fall into place. We have high school golf teams, none for pool. This is obvious. It has nothing to do with rules.
 
CreeDo said:
I gotta channel Kid Dynomite for this one:

Just because the rules don't spell out "It's bob's job to call this foul" doesn't mean it's nobody's job!
It doesn't mean the rule no longer applies! It doesn't mean play passes to the other player as if no foul occurred!

Can't figure out whose job it is to call that foul? Sort it out like adults and people with integrity.
You don't need the rulebook to hold your hand and tell you what common sense dictates.

Common sense: It's IMPLIED that all players are expected to follow the rules at all times,
not "follow the rules only if some third party instructs you to, or only if you know you're being watched
and cannot get away with cheating."

Common sense: The rules DO state that the penalty for X foul is ball-in-hand, and play passes to the other player.
That's explicitly written in black and white.
You choose not to give up ball-in-hand? Then you're not playing by the rules.

As I said in Joey's thread, go ahead and add some lines in the rulebook, if you think it will somehow
sway a few dishonest people into playing correctly.
But please, none of this "honest players are confused because the book never said..." stuff.
That's horseshit and you know it. Nobody's confused. They're cheaters attempting to justify their behavior with
what they THINK is a loophole. Except it doesn't and never did exist.
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Very well said
 
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