Stroke has arc path (Q-MD analyzed)

K

King Jehu

Registered
Thanks to Cue MD, I know the effect. I just need to figure out the cause.

I have a rather smooth, straight cue stroke until I add a little velocity. When I do, I tend to miss the pocket to the left. I also get unintended left English on the cue ball. I used a training cue ball to find that, on a medium to high speed shot, I tend to hit left of target by up to a full tip.

The Cue-MD shows that my back-stroke travels slightly to the right. The forward stroke bows out the the right and gets back to line just past contact. I stay down on the shot and the cue tip is right on line. That's why I never noticed what was happening until I got the device. The arc is causing a left-to-right path of the tip when it strikes the ball. That results in a path to the right of cue-line and left spin.

Any ideas on the cause? I've gone through all of the basics several times. (loose grip, stationary elbow, etc.)
 
King Jehu said:
Thanks to Cue MD, I know the effect. I just need to figure out the cause.

I have a rather smooth, straight cue stroke until I add a little velocity. When I do, I tend to miss the pocket to the left. I also get unintended left English on the cue ball. I used a training cue ball to find that, on a medium to high speed shot, I tend to hit left of target by up to a full tip.

The Cue-MD shows that my back-stroke travels slightly to the right. The forward stroke bows out the the right and gets back to line just past contact. I stay down on the shot and the cue tip is right on line. That's why I never noticed what was happening until I got the device. The arc is causing a left-to-right path of the tip when it strikes the ball. That results in a path to the right of cue-line and left spin.

Any ideas on the cause? I've gone through all of the basics several times. (loose grip, stationary elbow, etc.)
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I read your post several times and I am having trouble understanding your description what is happening. Words like "arc" and "bow" and phrases like "left-to right path of the tip when it strikes the ball,' followed by "left spin" just don't seem to paint a picture for me.

Maybe someone else here gets what you mean or you can link us to a video of you playing.
 
Sorry about the confusing description.

According to the Cue-MD, the path of my right hand as seen from above travels in an arc )
That would make the tip travel in the opposite but smaller arc (

It kind of reminds me of my golf swing. Like most hackers, I have a slice problem. That comes from applying power too early in the swing and the club travels "over the top" and takes an outside to inside path at impact.

I checked for an update to the software. It seems that the newer version also tracks rotation. That was very revealing. I am twisting my wrist consistently. I started working on that and my stroke has improved. I noticed that someone has a thread going on that. I'm going to take interest.

Thanks for the comments.
 
I'm assuming you're a right handed player based on your descriptions.

If indeed your grip is relaxed, then what's likely happening is that your forearm is driving the added momentum in your stroke and causing the cue to lurch at the point where you stress the muscles in the forearm to initiate the added speed. Think of it as a hitch in your delivery.

Your forearm/elbow bows out ever so slightly to the right but your bridge is stationary so this changes the angle of approach and forces the cue stick to contact on the left side of the cue ball and generate left spin.

If you're striking the left side of the cue ball but not accounting for the unintentional squirt to the right, this might cause you to strike the object ball too far to the right and cause you to miss to the left.

There are many things I might recommend but the explanations are too complex to address in this venue.

There might also be some timing issues that contribute to the problem which can't be diagnosed at this level.

At its core this is probably a relaxation problem in the forearm within your delivery at the moment you add greater velocity to the stroke.
 
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King Jehu said:
Sorry about the confusing description.

According to the Cue-MD, the path of my right hand as seen from above travels in an arc )
That would make the tip travel in the opposite but smaller arc (

It kind of reminds me of my golf swing. Like most hackers, I have a slice problem. That comes from applying power too early in the swing and the club travels "over the top" and takes an outside to inside path at impact.

I checked for an update to the software. It seems that the newer version also tracks rotation. That was very revealing. I am twisting my wrist consistently. I started working on that and my stroke has improved. I noticed that someone has a thread going on that. I'm going to take interest.

Thanks for the comments.
Click to expand...

Are you left-handed?
 
King Jehu said:
Sorry about the confusing description.

According to the Cue-MD, the path of my right hand as seen from above travels in an arc )
That would make the tip travel in the opposite but smaller arc (

It kind of reminds me of my golf swing. Like most hackers, I have a slice problem. That comes from applying power too early in the swing and the club travels "over the top" and takes an outside to inside path at impact.

I checked for an update to the software. It seems that the newer version also tracks rotation. That was very revealing. I am twisting my wrist consistently. I started working on that and my stroke has improved. I noticed that someone has a thread going on that. I'm going to take interest.

Thanks for the comments.
Click to expand...

I think you are referring to me, as I have posted about the QMD showing me that I was twisting it. I took a page out of the golfers' book and put an alignment line on my ferrule (like a golfer puts a line on his ball to help lining up putts) and have been focusing on keeping that at the top of the cue. I am waiting a while, before I reassess, with the QMD, to see if the recorded twisting has actually decreased. But just the effort to keep that line right on top of the cue through to the stroke and past the follow through has made a discernable improvement to my stroke.
 
Now that I've discovered the rotation issue, I gave it some thought. I noticed that I have a loose grip with the cue cradled in the fingers of my right hand. During the forward stroke, I naturally "firm up" the grip. The curl of my fingers causes a clockwise rotation as they bring the cue more firmly into my hand. I've been working on firming up the grip a little with the index finger only. It's helping the rotation value on the Cue-MD. I seem to be reducing the unintentional side-spin as well.
 
King Jehu said:
Now that I've discovered the rotation issue, I gave it some thought. I noticed that I have a loose grip with the cue cradled in the fingers of my right hand. During the forward stroke, I naturally "firm up" the grip. The curl of my fingers causes a clockwise rotation as they bring the cue more firmly into my hand. I've been working on firming up the grip a little with the index finger only. It's helping the rotation value on the Cue-MD. I seem to be reducing the unintentional side-spin as well.
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This is why I'm confused by your analysis. If you're right handed and you're twisting the cue to where your hand is rotating clockwise, that sounds like unwanted right spin, yet you say you're getting unwanted left spin.

If you're hitting the ball on the left side even though everything you're doing would ordinarily result in right spin, then you must be seeing the left side of the cue ball as your center. That can happen with an extremely dominant right eye with right-handed players.

I would like very much to see a video of you shooting. You sound like an interesting case.
 
FranCrimi said:
This is why I'm confused by your analysis. If you're right handed and you're twisting the cue to where your hand is rotating clockwise, that sounds like unwanted right spin, yet you say you're getting unwanted left spin.

If you're hitting the ball on the left side even though everything you're doing would ordinarily result in right spin, then you must be seeing the left side of the cue ball as your center. That can happen with an extremely dominant right eye with right-handed players.

I would like very much to see a video of you shooting. You sound like an interesting case.
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I've been getting more frustrated with the Q-MD. Mine seems to have a problem staying connected, triggering shots, false triggers, etc. Every once in a while, I seem to get a group of reliable data.

I went back over the last few sessions and discovered that my roll is inconsistent. Sometimes CW, sometimes CCW. That made me look more at my grip. I noticed that I was bending my wrist backwards so the cue was cradled by the fingertips. I tried straightening the wrist. The roll inconsistency went away and I'm not getting the massive left side-spin on high velocity shots. It still feels very awkward but that's to be expected anytime a major change is made.

edit:
Out of curiosity, I looked up some images of some of my favorite pros (Shane, Darren and Niels) and noticed that, for the most part, their wrists are pretty straight.
 
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I don't think I'll study Bergman's grip. That looks way too complicated for me:

Bergman%20grip.jpg
 
Sounds like you're on the right track. A straight wrist is a good thing for most shots. There are always exceptions for occasional shots.
 
I've made quite a bit of progress on multiple issues. The Cue-MD was helpful. After reviewing several sessions, I figured out that the twisting of the cue was inconsistent. It was especially notable on power shots. The straightening of the wrist was, like most changes in habit, awkward for a while but it stabilized the twisting action.

Another thing I had to address was the arc-path of the cue that tended to be more increased with power. Fortunately, I have a friend who is a pro-level player who told me that my body was getting in the way of the stroke. After some advice from him, I started straightening my right knee and bending more at the waist. That helped immensely.

Another big effect was failing to accelerate through the stroke. I know that's level 101 basic stuff but it's amazing how failing to follow the simple basics can creep into your habits. It's impossible to accelerate through if you don't stay down on the shot.

I hope some of this is helpful to others.
 
King Jehu said:
I've made quite a bit of progress on multiple issues. The Cue-MD was helpful. After reviewing several sessions, I figured out that the twisting of the cue was inconsistent. It was especially notable on power shots. The straightening of the wrist was, like most changes in habit, awkward for a while but it stabilized the twisting action.

Another thing I had to address was the arc-path of the cue that tended to be more increased with power. Fortunately, I have a friend who is a pro-level player who told me that my body was getting in the way of the stroke. After some advice from him, I started straightening my right knee and bending more at the waist. That helped immensely.

Another big effect was failing to accelerate through the stroke. I know that's level 101 basic stuff but it's amazing how failing to follow the simple basics can creep into your habits. It's impossible to accelerate through if you don't stay down on the shot.

I hope some of this is helpful to others.
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glad to hear cue-md helped you
i too am finding it useful
 
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The Cue-MD is kind of expensive, difficult and frustrating to use but the best way I've found to identify stroke flaws. I have one from the first generation. I think the design has been improved since then. The removable, rechargeable batteries are not convenient or reliable. All in all, I recommend it.
 
QMD v2.0 is a big step up from the first generation.

King Jehu said:
The Cue-MD is kind of expensive, difficult and frustrating to use but the best way I've found to identify stroke flaws. I have one from the first generation. I think the design has been improved since then. The removable, rechargeable batteries are not convenient or reliable. All in all, I recommend it.
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Mosens said:
QMD v2.0 is a big step up from the first generation.
Click to expand...

I spoke with Cue-MD about the problems I was having. Keeping bluetooth connected is quite a challenge. I figured out that I could only get a few minutes out of a freshly charged battery before I started having connection issues. They told me that, if I bought a new one, I could send my old one in for a $30 refund afterward. In short, to get one that works reliably, I need to buy it twice and then give up the old one for a 25% refund.
 
King Jehu said:
I spoke with Cue-MD about the problems I was having. Keeping bluetooth connected is quite a challenge. I figured out that I could only get a few minutes out of a freshly charged battery before I started having connection issues. They told me that, if I bought a new one, I could send my old one in for a $30 refund afterward. In short, to get one that works reliably, I need to buy it twice and then give up the old one for a 25% refund.
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diamond tables red labels were thier first model
the rails played very different from other tables
eventually they redesigned the rails and now have blue label tables
if someone wants to trade in their old table for a new one or switch out the rails diamond charges for that you dont get a free swap
just saying
 
bbb said:
diamond tables red labels were thier first model

the rails played very different from other tables

eventually they redesigned the rails and now have blue label tables

if someone wants to trade in their old table for a new one or switch out the rails diamond charges for that you dont get a free swap

just saying
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Their Blue label rails play very differently than Super Speed rails on Brunswicks as well, just saying
 
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