Stroke help please

[bowiebill]

I’m an average to slightly above average player. I’m trying to work on my stroke. I’m right handed but left eye dominant.

As I follow through the cue ball, my tip tends to jump a little to the left, and I’ve found my elbow drops a couple/few inches down and out away from my body which is creating a bit of a chicken wing. How do I fix it?

 

[bowiebill]

 

[hang-the-9]

Watch the 3 part thing that Mark Wilson put out, your arm is very close to your body and the wrist in inside the elbow by quite a bit.
Look at this screenshot, every part of your aiming is pointed in a different direction. Wrist is way tucked under the body so you have this large angle the joint is moving on, head and eyes going one way, cue is pointed another way. From this angle, your chin, and nose should be centered and pointed in the say way the cue is, but it's going to the left of the screen while the cue is pointing to the right.

Looks like you need to adjust your whole body stance so when you drop into the shot you are not so side-ways, move your feet and maybe switch how your hips are set to the shot.

Here is a good example of the technical "right" lining up on the shot, elbow, wrist, head, eyes, all pointed the same way. Not all players are this even, but this is the perfect technical stance barring any adjustments needed for body build and eye dominance.

Here even though on this shot SVB is a bit not centered with the head, everything else is perfectly on the shot line, eyes, elbow, wrist, fore-arm.
The cue can do nothing much except go straight with that stroke.

 

[dquarasr]

DISCLAIMER: Not an instructor!

I fought with chicken wing. I have mostly exorcised it. Here's what I noticed:

1) when at CB address position, your arm is hanging inside your elbow, that is, your hand is closer to your body than is your elbow. Your arm is not hanging straight down.

2) It may not apply to you, but I had a weird thing. My stroke was actually an "S" curve. Even when stroking very, very slowly, the mechanics of my stroke had the tip going right (inducing unintended right spin), then in follow through it would end up left of the shot line. WTF? I experimented, and noticed that if I held the cue with a grip that felt "natural", my wrist was bent in ever so slightly toward my body, sorta like SVB (but I wasn't consciously trying to mimic his stroke). I started holding the cue with a more "thumb straight down" position, and it pretty much eliminated the S-curve. I am not sure whether this is happening with you, but maybe give it a try since I notice your wrist is just a *wee* bit bent toward your body. What also helped me is feeling the weight of the cue on my pinkie finger. I also notice that a very smooth acceleration of the cue helps keep my stroke on line.

On the positive side, I think you do a good job of addressing the CB with your arm perpendicular to the shot, as well as do a good job of keeping your grip relaxed.

Best of luck.

 

[hang-the-9]

I'd post this in the instructor forum and maybe find a top player in your local pool room or even an instructor to work with you. The biggest issue will be, and I know from experience, fixing things after a long time of doing it the wrong way. The shots just won't feel comfortable or aimed correctly compared to your old natural stance and aiming once you start to change things up, and it will probably feel a bit off for a very long time. I have been changing up how I line up and aim at the ball for like 15 years now a bit at a time and it's still not fully comfortable for me to aim to hit the true center of the cueball, I need to manually adjust on many straight shots to make sure I don't spin the cueball and throw the shot off. I am off like 50 Fargo points in my rating due to this off my average speed.

 

[bowiebill]

The

Watch the 3 part thing that Mark Wilson put out, your arm is very close to your body and the wrist in inside the elbow by quite a bit.
Look at this screenshot, every part of your aiming is pointed in a different direction. Wrist is way tucked under the body so you have this large angle the joint is moving on, head and eyes going one way, cue is pointed another way. From this angle, your chin, and nose should be centered and pointed in the say way the cue is, but it's going to the left of the screen while the cue is pointing to the right.

Looks like you need to adjust your whole body stance so when you drop into the shot you are not so side-ways, move your feet and maybe switch how your hips are set to the shot.

View attachment 676430

Here is a good example of the technical "right" lining up on the shot, elbow, wrist, head, eyes, all pointed the same way. Not all players are this even, but this is the perfect technical stance barring any adjustments needed for body build and eye dominance.

View attachment 676432

View attachment 676433

Here even though on this shot SVB is a bit not centered with the head, everything else is perfectly on the shot line, eyes, elbow, wrist, fore-arm.
The cue can do nothing much except go straight with that stroke.

View attachment 676435

mark Wilson videos is what got me started looking at my stroke. Lol.

I believe my attempting to get my left eye over the cue is what’s throwing my alignment off. I don’t know how to fix it.

 

[hang-the-9]

The

mark Wilson videos is what got me started looking at my stroke. Lol.

I believe my attempting to get my left eye over the cue is what’s throwing my alignment off. I don’t know how to fix it.

Do it the way my son and Morra did it, swap to playing lefty LOL You just need to move the body around a bunch till you can line up well and still see the shot correctly. It may not work, playing opposite eye dominance is a bit tough, but you should be able to get it down closer to straight. It's not a week long or even a month long process for such a large change and you likely will need a good player or instructor to watch you and help with adjustments. Look at how Neils does it, he may be the best example, although his technique is a bit extreme and seems to need a long lanky body build to pull off.

Going by the football game you had on, I'm guessing you are not in the New England area, so I can't meet you to help

 

[Zerksies]

Watch the 3 part thing that Mark Wilson put out, your arm is very close to your body and the wrist in inside the elbow by quite a bit.
Look at this screenshot, every part of your aiming is pointed in a different direction. Wrist is way tucked under the body so you have this large angle the joint is moving on, head and eyes going one way, cue is pointed another way. From this angle, your chin, and nose should be centered and pointed in the say way the cue is, but it's going to the left of the screen while the cue is pointing to the right.

Looks like you need to adjust your whole body stance so when you drop into the shot you are not so side-ways, move your feet and maybe switch how your hips are set to the shot.

View attachment 676430

Here is a good example of the technical "right" lining up on the shot, elbow, wrist, head, eyes, all pointed the same way. Not all players are this even, but this is the perfect technical stance barring any adjustments needed for body build and eye dominance.

View attachment 676432

View attachment 676433

Here even though on this shot SVB is a bit not centered with the head, everything else is perfectly on the shot line, eyes, elbow, wrist, fore-arm.
The cue can do nothing much except go straight with that stroke.

View attachment 676435

He needs to twist his hip. Your too forward facing

 

[bowiebill]

Do it the way my son and Morra did it, swap to playing lefty LOL You just need to move the body around a bunch till you can line up well and still see the shot correctly. It may not work, playing opposite eye dominance is a bit tough, but you should be able to get it down closer to straight. It's not a week long or even a month long process for such a large change and you likely will need a good player or instructor to watch you and help with adjustments. Look at how Neils does it, he may be the best example, although his technique is a bit extreme and seems to need a long lanky body build to pull off.

Going by the football game you had on, I'm guessing you are not in the New England area, so I can't meet you to help

Maryland here

 

[hang-the-9]

Maryland here

If you can't find anyone to help locally, go to the Expo, it's pretty close to you, there are usually several instructors there and you should be able to book some time with one.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe my attempting to get my left eye over the cue is what’s throwing my alignment off. I don’t know how to fix it.

Looks like you're holding your grip hand under your torso in order to get the stick under your (cross) dominant left eye. Try moving your grip hand away from your body so it's directly under your elbow (forearm vertical) - this will "close" your stance a little (facing the stick more) so you'll need to turn your head to "face" the shot squarely.

It'll probably feel awkward at first...

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

Watch the 3 part thing that Mark Wilson put out, your arm is very close to your body and the wrist in inside the elbow by quite a bit.
Look at this screenshot, every part of your aiming is pointed in a different direction. Wrist is way tucked under the body so you have this large angle the joint is moving on, head and eyes going one way, cue is pointed another way. From this angle, your chin, and nose should be centered and pointed in the say way the cue is, but it's going to the left of the screen while the cue is pointing to the right.

Looks like you need to adjust your whole body stance so when you drop into the shot you are not so side-ways, move your feet and maybe switch how your hips are set to the shot.

View attachment 676430

Here is a good example of the technical "right" lining up on the shot, elbow, wrist, head, eyes, all pointed the same way. Not all players are this even, but this is the perfect technical stance barring any adjustments needed for body build and eye dominance.

i am not an instructor but i dont completely agree with all of the above in the beginning
right handed left eye dominant players will all tend to have their nose pointed to the right of the cue stick
although the better players WILL have the forearm perpendicullar to the floor at set /flat wrist(some)/and the upper arm in line with the cue and shot most of them (ronnie seems to be angled in)
see the pics bel;ow of ronnie osullivan
right handed left eye dominant
he plays pretty sporty !!
you may want to watch him on youtube and see his stance etc

 

[bbb]

still not an instructor
but i noticed on you side view you step in to the shot but then move your back leg
you back leg should be your anchor then step forward
also
you should not watch the chargers
they will damage your game for sure.....

 

[hang-the-9]

i am not an instructor but i dont completely agree with all of the above
right handed left eye dominant players will all tend to have their nose pointed to the right of the cue stick
although the better players WILL have the forearm perpendicullar to the floor at set /flat wrist(some)/and the upper arm in line with the cue and shot most of them (ronnie seems to be angled in)
see the pics bel;ow of ronnie osullivan
right handed left eye dominant
he plays pretty sporty !!
you may want to watch him on youtube and see his stance etc
View attachment 676492View attachment 676493View attachment 676494

I don't like showing a few very rare exceptions to the standard rules of play/stance, although it is possible to play very well and not be lined up perfectly or have an off-kilter stroke like McCready or Bustamante.

The issue with a few top players having not perfect mechanics is that they play at the top level with it, while the other 99% of pool players with alignment difficulties do not. SVB has a hitch in the back-arm also, but all those players still deliver the tip to the proper contact point and can still use spin with no issues. If the stance or the stroke was not a problem hindering good play, then whoever had those issues would already be playing at top speed and not looking to change, they would have the tip going in the right place at the finish of the stoke. If it's not, then something has to be looked at.

 

[bbb]

I don't like showing a few very rare exceptions to the standard rules of play/stance, although it is possible to play very well and not be lined up perfectly or have an off-kilter stroke like McCready or Bustamante.

The issue with a few top players having not perfect mechanics is that they play at the top level with it, while the other 99% of pool players with alignment difficulties do not. SVB has a hitch in the back-arm also, but all those players still deliver the tip to the proper contact point and can still use spin with no issues. If the stance or the stroke was not a problem hindering good play, then whoever had those issues would already be playing at top speed and not looking to change, they would have the tip going in the right place at the finish of the stoke. If it's not, then something has to be looked at.

if you go back you will see i edited my post referring to the beginning of your post with the lines of his eyes all over the place
you are among the few posters who i agree with most of the time and seem to be very knowledgeable and experienced
i just think having your eyes perpendicular to the cue stick is ideal but alot of players have some slight bias
the op has more issues than his head position and has to work those out ie upper arm in line with the cue and forearm and wrist position
as he does maybe his head position will probably change alittle
mark wilson shoots very sideways and teaches that in his book
he tells you to have your toe on the shot line while most instructors i have read say it should be your instep or front part of the heel
most everything else he teaches is golden
i took 3 days with him but he did not figure out why i consistently hit the cue ball 3-5mm right of center when trying to hit center
but he did improve many other aspects of my stroke and game
i would highly recommend him

 

[bowiebill]

still not an instructor
but i noticed on you side view you step in to the shot but then move your back leg
you back leg should be your anchor then step forward
also
you should not watch the chargers
they will damage your game for sure.....

It’s ok. I was on green bay

 

[hang-the-9]

if you go back you will see i edited my post referring to the beginning of your post with the lines of his eyes all over the place
you are among the few posters who i agree with most of the time and seem to be very knowledgeable and experienced
i just think having your eyes perpendicular to the cue stick is ideal but alot of players have some slight bias
the op has more issues than his head position and has to work those out ie upper arm in line with the cue and forearm and wrist position
as he does maybe his head position will probably change alittle
mark wilson shoots very sideways and teaches that in his book
he tells you to have your toe on the shot line while most instructors i have read say it should be your instep or front part of the heel
most everything else he teaches is golden
i took 3 days with him but he did not figure out why i consistently hit the cue ball 3-5mm right of center when trying to hit center
but he did improve many other aspects of my stroke and game
i would highly recommend him

Yep, there is not just a single thing that usually needs to be checked on as to reasons a bad shot happens. I get so many players that ask "why can't I make a straight shot" or something along those lines, and the stance and stroke has like 8 things that could be the reason why. I know most sports are not close to a one size fits all setup because we are all humans and different, but I just like trying to eliminate as many things as possible as to why a miss or a bad position shot or something happens. If someone just has to line up a bit funny, then it's really up to the player to figure out what adjustments they need to make to keep the tip on the shot line and hitting the cueball where they were trying to. A bit like teaching speed control, no instructor or player can tell the person exactly how a certain speed shot feels, that can only be done by the person practicing. I can tell someone to hit it "soft" but really the only person to actually get the feel of how to move the muscles to move the ball a few inches is them. I think the stance and accurate hit is in a very similar situation with learning it, we can start with the "ideal" stroke but the final result is up to the person who is controlling the brain and body.

A good instructor can help the person align them to a stance that from prior experience they know worked for others in the same situation. Sometimes the hardest part to changing is the person's reluctance to change, which is pretty clear is not the case here, but there are too many players that say "I know you say this, but I like doing my thing". Well sure, and then you do your thing and get the results from your thing that you are getting, but if you are not happy with the results then your thing is maybe not the way to go.

Also a few shot alignments you really can't face fully forward as you are reaching across the table, that is why I tried to pick out some easy stance shots where the player is not sideways. In the first image you posted, Ronnie looks to be really stretching across the table which I am sure contributed to his head facing the way it did, the other two images are a better starting point to compare.

 

[bbb]

Yep, there is not just a single thing that usually needs to be checked on as to reasons a bad shot happens. I get so many players that ask "why can't I make a straight shot" or something along those lines, and the stance and stroke has like 8 things that could be the reason why. I know most sports are not close to a one size fits all setup because we are all humans and different, but I just like trying to eliminate as many things as possible as to why a miss or a bad position shot or something happens. If someone just has to line up a bit funny, then it's really up to the player to figure out what adjustments they need to make to keep the tip on the shot line and hitting the cueball where they were trying to. A bit like teaching speed control, no instructor or player can tell the person exactly how a certain speed shot feels, that can only be done by the person practicing. I can tell someone to hit it "soft" but really the only person to actually get the feel of how to move the muscles to move the ball a few inches is them. I think the stance and accurate hit is in a very similar situation with learning it, we can start with the "ideal" stroke but the final result is up to the person who is controlling the brain and body.

A good instructor can help the person align them to a stance that from prior experience they know worked for others in the same situation. Sometimes the hardest part to changing is the person's reluctance to change, which is pretty clear is not the case here, but there are too many players that say "I know you say this, but I like doing my thing". Well sure, and then you do your thing and get the results from your thing that you are getting, but if you are not happy with the results then your thing is maybe not the way to go.

Also a few shot alignments you really can't face fully forward as you are reaching across the table, that is why I tried to pick out some easy stance shots where the player is not sideways. In the first image you posted, Ronnie looks to be really stretching across the table which I am sure contributed to his head facing the way it did, the other two images are a better starting point to compare.

i agree with you 100%.......

 

[SmoothStroke]

Take two additional videos of yourself.
1) Set up a 4-5 ft. straight shot diagonally pocket to pocket with the camera facing you directly on your track line.
Use a laser if you have one, if not I would purchase one. Set the track with the laser and put reinforcement tabs dead center on the line. Place the cue ball tab for a comfortable bridge hand (Not Jammed, cramped near the rail)
Shoot 10 stop shots and 10 follow shots medium power, open bridge.

2) Repeat # 1 and move the camera. Set the camera behind you preferably elevated to show your head, neck, back , legs, feet, swing arm,swing hand, grip, bridge hand, the table. You want the camera behind you and up filming out, not overhead looking down.
Shoot 10 stop shots and 10 follow shots medium power, open bridge.